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pooltchr
09-30-2003, 05:53 AM
I am the TD for a regional 9-ball tour and as such, am often called over to watch for good hits, etc during the matches. My biggest problem with this is determining whether or not a shot is a push shot. I know the rule, but it seems to be a judgement call as to how long the tip is in contact with the cue ball. Does anyone have a definitive way of determining whether or not a shot is a good shot or a push?

Scott Lee
09-30-2003, 06:39 AM
Steve...In this instance, where the OB and CB are close together, if both CB and OB are traveling approximately the same direction at the same speed, it is a foul. That's how I was taught to call them!

Scott

pooltchr
09-30-2003, 07:19 AM
Thanks, Scott. That should make it a little bit easier to call.
Steve

Aboo
09-30-2003, 10:42 AM
So, in effect, you cannot use Follow on shots where the balls are close together, or it's a foul? But I can stroke the exact same length, using draw and it's a legal shot?

This is one of those rules that I've never really understood. What is the "benefit" of a "Push" shot anyway? What can I do by "pushing" the cue ball, that I cannot by stroking the cue ball?

Could someone clarify this for me?

SpiderMan
09-30-2003, 11:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Steve...In this instance, where the OB and CB are close together, if both CB and OB are traveling approximately the same direction at the same speed, it is a foul. That's how I was taught to call them!
Scott <hr /></blockquote>

Agreed, it is a foul. But it is most likely a double-hit foul, not a push foul as inquired by pooltchr.

SpiderMan

Rod
09-30-2003, 12:04 PM
Lets not confuse a "push" stroke with a double hit foul. To use a push stroke generally the balls are frozen, if they were not then that would be just asking for a foul to be called.

A push stroke is used to keep the cue tip on the c/b longer. Its obvious reason is to throw the o/b more than a normal stroke. It is not a legal stroke stroke.

Double hits can, as Scott mentioned send both the c/b and o/b off at the same speed, which is a foul. Other double hits can be hard to detect without a good understanding of ball reactions and even sound. Use and understand the rule book and the guidelines to BCA refs as best you can.

You'll probably make a mistake sometime, but that is how we learn. Have a good player, and I mean good that you respect his opinon. Have him show you some strokes that are or are not a foul.

Rod

Sid_Vicious
09-30-2003, 04:42 PM
"A push stroke is used to keep the cue tip on the c/b longer. Its obvious reason is to throw the o/b more than a normal stroke. It is not a legal stroke."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Rod...Spiderman and I discussed this today, kind of at odds, I being in the camp believing that the highest percentage of strokes made on frozen CB/OB, when positioned 2-3 feet from the target's pocket, needing a fair amount of throw to make the pocket, are pushed strokes, if only for fractions of a second. You have double the mass with two balls frozen, the same cue weight and a forced restricted, gentle slow stroke to allow the throw to take effect. I really feel that this makes for a longer that usual cling in tip/CB hit, an actual push. Granted it is fairly undetectable by the human observer, still I think that the slow motion, frame by frame video will prove it.

Short of halting the tip right near the CB and obviously pushing it through, I lean towards either stopping the legal allowance of hitting directly through the frozen pair, OR else simply saying it is legal regardless of a ref's call, unless it is blatant, such as the halted tip @CB with a push following. You ask most of the so called refs I've been around and I doubt that many of them will be consistent in how they all call the hit as good or bad. That simply is not consistent enough IMO as far as a BCA rule set...sid

Qtec
09-30-2003, 05:36 PM
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/html/HSV7-5.htm

Q

Rod
09-30-2003, 05:58 PM
Well Sid there should be a new rule book out within a couple of years. I never thought there was a problem with calling a push stroke. It either is or it isn't. If that is a problem then the ref must not be very experienced.

If you need a high speed camera to try to prove a push, then during a game the call would just go in favor of the player. Lets not build to much rocket science into what is a deliberate stroke.

Rod

Sid_Vicious
09-30-2003, 08:38 PM
My point is that with the slow movement toward the mass of 2 frozen balls, to throw a 2 foot shot say 2" to the right or left, that the possibilities of remaining on top of the CB for more than the legal "hit &amp; escape" usually obtained during average speed with the single mass of just the CB alone, is likely, and even probably clinging as a literal push. You seem to scoff that the analogy is bunk, but if that shot is set up, shot several times and played in front of a quality digital camcorder, I contend that we'll find myself possibly right. Is it not the theory that when less than a chalks width that a straight hit, the CB passing the spot the OB resided in, will always be judged a double hit? Maybe there are holes in all that too, makes as much sense as discarding my possibilities, one is not much more understandable to an intellegent mind than the other when you think about it. I never intended on recording anybody's shot for official judgement reasons, that would be a little overboard, and yet I do not merely discard the theory of anything which might merit a possible new piece of understanding to me about to what happens in real time. Some people seem really questioning about some things when you talk to them, and the same people are quick to hurry past something else, making an idea seemingly an unimportant and unworthy consideration on their part. Funny how that appears in some who are normally very analytical by nature,,,,out of character imo...sid

Rod
09-30-2003, 09:55 PM
Sid,

I understood what you were saying, and that is the reason I made my comment. I never said it wasn't possible. We could produce different results by adding balls. The more weight the more likely to produce the effect your talking about. At least it would make it more visible. I'm afraid a std camcorder's frame rate, what 50 FPS? is too slow, but one could try.

I just didn't want to get into a long typed out discussion of something that might exist or exist to an infinite amount. That is, not enough to make a difference in a call. I might do that over a beer or 8 but it's difficult here. I guess I'm not in an analytical mood on this one. Sorry if I run past this one too quick.

Rod

Wally_in_Cincy
10-01-2003, 06:24 AM
Or everyone could just adopt APA rules. There is no "push" or "double-hit" foul /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Wally~~takes advantage of that sometimes.

Sid_Vicious
10-01-2003, 07:13 AM
Q...I'll have to wait till I get to work to ssee it, I don't have that current video player version to view it at home yet. What's your "take" on the video, pro or con for dbl hits/push???sid

Sid_Vicious
10-01-2003, 08:47 AM
Rod...Yea it doesn't warrant a lot of attention. I've never been called for any fouls on the slow rollers, so no biggie...sid~~~maybe just another bad hair day

Qtec
10-01-2003, 09:02 AM
First of all Sid I must say this is not a shot that is allowed in snooker , so I can only go by what I think is possible and what I see.

IMO, to get that amount of throw , you have to make a double hit. In the video, you will see that on the second contact the Qb has moved from pos. A to pos. B.[ the 9b being the white]


START(
%AO2R7%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%Es8C2%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I R4S6%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MQ4T3%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PP5R2%QO5P4%RS1T0%W C6W4%XS6Q0
%YC8X9%ZX4Q7%\Y2_1%]I5[5%^V1P2
)END

At the second hit, he's not hitting it full ball, its half ball.

Thats how I see it. wei (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)


Q

Sid_Vicious
10-01-2003, 09:53 AM
I saw it a little bit ago, and it agrees with what I said earlier, at least this one video example did. Also, the stroke this video presented wasn't even as "thru/fat-a-hit" as I'd give it in most cases. Thanks...sid

Fred Agnir
10-01-2003, 03:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Short of halting the tip right near the CB and obviously pushing it through, <hr /></blockquote> For those who don't know, and to bring back the original question, the above quote is the definition of a push shot. All of the other discussion seem to be addressing other shots like frozen throw and double-hits.

Sid, shooting towards a frozen pair does indeed result in a longer contact time. But the push shot rule has almost nothing to do with "contact time" other than the fact that an increased contact time is one of the results of a push shot. But "increased contact time" in of itself doesn't make a push shot.

In other words: a push shot creates a longer contact time. But a longer contact time isn't always created by a push shot.

Fred &lt;~~~ hopes everyone realizes that an illegal push shot doesn't need an object ball to be present.

randyg
10-01-2003, 05:37 PM
SID: It is very possible and quite easy to strike the cue-ball(Chalks width) straight forward and have it pass through the spot where the object ball initially resided without commiting a "double hit". Good refs know what to look for and the poorly trained ones don't have a clue.....randyg

Fred Agnir
10-01-2003, 05:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> SID: It is very possible and quite easy to strike the cue-ball(Chalks width) straight forward and have it pass through the spot where the object ball initially resided without commiting a "double hit". Good refs know what to look for and the poorly trained ones don't have a clue.....randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Absolutely. Hence, the chalk cube wording is "a guide" as you said. I've got a pool playing friend who played more billiards than anything else. The billiard "fouette" stroke where you can hit follow on a cueball close to an object ball without fouling by raising the stick out of the way upon contact, is a stroke that is unnervingly easy for him. In my hands, I'll foul every time.

Fred

Sid_Vicious
10-02-2003, 06:46 AM
RANDY: Then I see little use for mentioning the distance of less than a chalk's width at all. I am certain that I have been told by certified refs in past years that if you shoot directly into the face of the CB and the CB then passes the resting spot that the OB resides in, it would be judged a double hit. Ok, so I was either wrong, told wrong or it changed. Regardless IMO I feel it opens up lots of room for arguments to not simply use the rule as it used to be represented. I'll bet that there is a reletively small percentile of players who can hit it straight, and successfully not dbl hit, and even some of those judgements may very well be biased. Not in the best interest of the sport for that gray area to exist, AIMO. If I am right, then it makes sense to me to use the rule as a rule, not a guide. Otherwise, just take the chalk's width distance verbage out and s-can it. It means very little without something concrete to back it up. I believe I can call a ref to watch a hit at any time, no matter the chalk distance, so why have it at all, just clutters the game up.

It's been mentioned here that any referee worth anything should be able to make right calls, even in this dbl hit thing. It's meat for another thread topic, and I'll keep it to a minimum by saying...there's lots of descrepencies amongst refs, especially with this kind of rule, OOPS guide...sid

Fred Agnir
10-02-2003, 06:57 AM
All good reasons to just completely do away with the double hit rule or the push rule for that matter. It's sometimes too tough to put it to a judgement call. Let 'em double hit to their heart's content.

Fred &lt;~~~ IMO

randyg
10-02-2003, 11:17 AM
Sid: I agree whole heartedly...randyg

Alfie
10-02-2003, 02:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Good refs know what to look for and the poorly trained ones don't have a clue <hr /></blockquote>and that would be ...?

Alfie
10-02-2003, 02:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr>RANDY: Then I see little use for mentioning the distance of less than a chalk's width at all. I am certain that I have been told by certified refs in past years that if you shoot directly into the face of the CB and the CB then passes the resting spot that the OB resides in, it would be judged a double hit. Ok, so I was either wrong, told wrong or it changed. Regardless IMO I feel it opens up lots of room for arguments to not simply use the rule as it used to be represented. I'll bet that there is a reletively small percentile of players who can hit it straight, and successfully not dbl hit, and even some of those judgements may very well be biased. Not in the best interest of the sport for that gray area to exist, AIMO. If I am right, then it makes sense to me to use the rule as a rule, not a guide. Otherwise, just take the chalk's width distance verbage out and s-can it. It means very little without something concrete to back it up. I believe I can call a ref to watch a hit at any time, no matter the chalk distance, so why have it at all, just clutters the game up.

It's been mentioned here that any referee worth anything should be able to make right calls, even in this dbl hit thing. It's meat for another thread topic, and I'll keep it to a minimum by saying...there's lots of descrepencies amongst refs, especially with this kind of rule, OOPS guide...sid<hr /></blockquote>
Sid: I agree whole heartedly...randyg <hr /></blockquote>You agree whole heartedly with what? the last sentence? the last paragraph? something in the middle? the entire post?

randyg
10-02-2003, 03:57 PM
Sid: Don't faint! The entire post....randyg

Sid_Vicious
10-03-2003, 02:22 PM
Thanks Randy, always a pleasure to get a thumbs up from you...sid

plato 17
10-04-2003, 06:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> All good reasons to just completely do away with the double hit rule or the push rule for that matter. It's sometimes too tough to put it to a judgement call. Let 'em double hit to their heart's content.


Another very good point, I double hit and push all of the time and rarely if ever any one even see's it or calls it, if they do I usually argue them out of it. The worst that can happen to me is go sit down and let them win the argument, I had no shot any way, so I get to rob people with these shots and get by with it 99% of the time. I agree, few refs have the experience or knowledge to call it, so get it out of the rule books, it cannot be called in pool halls or in leagues, these people are too bush to see it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fred &lt;~~~ IMO
<hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
12-01-2004, 03:35 PM
The URL for this clip has changed. All of the super-slow-motion clips (including recently added clips) can be found at:
www.engr.colostate.edu/pool/high_speed_videos (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html)

dr_dave
12-01-2004, 03:40 PM
The URLs for the video clips has changed. They can now be accessed at:
www.engr.colostate.edu/pool/ (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/)