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View Full Version : Did I make a bad call?



nhp
10-02-2003, 01:18 AM
Until a week ago, I used to direct USPPA tournaments at the local poolhall. The reasons why I stopped running the tournaments is for one, I don't like waking up early on Saturdays, and two, I have to deal with people who whine and complain alot. If I go in favor of one person, the other person gets mad at me, so I am sick of it. There was one situation where in a match, player A got left with the 7 and 8 ball close to each other, and in order to cut the ball in the pocket he would come very close to the 8 ball (in a game of 9-ball). Player A was standing at the table, deciding what he was going to do. Player B, who was sitting behind player A, gets up out of his chair, completely out of player A's line of sight, and checks to see if he should call me to watch the hit. Player A notices player B out of the corner of his eye, and gets in an argument with him about disturbing his train of thought. Player B's argument was that he was just checking if he needed to call me to referee the shot, and player A's argument was that he disturbed his concentration. I told player A that since he was not down on the shot, and simply standing at the table, player B had a right to get up and look since player A was standing in front of him. When player B got up, he was completely behind Player A, and player A must have noticed him by seeing his shadow move or something. Anyways, player A got upset and told me that I was wrong. What do you think? Was I wrong? I usually deal with situations like this every week, so I got a little tired of it.

jjinfla
10-02-2003, 05:14 AM
Doesn't matter if you were right or wrong. Since you were the TD and they asked for your opinion they have to live with your decision.

But I think you were right anyway.

Jake

pooltchr
10-02-2003, 06:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Doesn't matter if you were right or wrong. Since you were the TD and they asked for your opinion they have to live with your decision.

But I think you were right anyway.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

What he said!

Voodoo Daddy
10-02-2003, 06:50 AM
When your willing to take the resposibility of running a tournament, your setting yourself up to become the PH good/bad guy. When I had my One Hole tour, I had to make several calls that didnt sit well with certain folks. In one case the guy a made a call against never played in another of the three remaining events and he calls himself a one hole player...&lt;Voodoo rolls his eyes and laughs&gt;. As TD, your word is final and no amount of whining will change your call, dealing with the tears is a different story!!

OnePocketChamp
10-02-2003, 06:51 AM
It is certainly within the rules of tournament pool for player B check the position of a close shot and make a determination if he feels a referee needs to witness players A shot. If player A doesn't like it then he should either grow up or stop playing tournament pool. Obviously he has never played for any serious money, where to some players sharking is part of the game or he would have much better control over his concentration level.

CrispyFish
10-02-2003, 07:08 AM
If my opponent didn't want to let me see the balls before a touchy shot, I would expect that he is trying to get away with a foul. You made the right call.

RedHell
10-02-2003, 07:46 AM
I agree with all the posters here, you were right.

And for the second part of your post, giving up directing tournies, let me say this. I agree getting up in the morning is anoying (I'm a late sleeper). But for all the whining and complaining that you get, I'm sure you get a good share of thank you and smiles.

Don't look at the whiners, look at all the happy people you made that day.

Nostroke
10-02-2003, 10:31 AM
You made the right call clearly both on the non shark and in quitting the directors job!

Fran Crimi
10-02-2003, 11:03 AM
I don't think you made a bad call considering that you didn't have any particular rules to that effect in place. I used to direct local tournaments and I know what you mean about facing that kind of thing a lot. It's frustrating and aggravating to have players hating you because of a ruling. One of the things I used to do was to try to take each incident and use it to fine tune the tournament rules to hopefully avoid future confrontations on that particular thing. Like, for example, after an incident like that, I would say the following week at the players meeting that players not shooting need to stay in their chairs (or corner) unless they tell the shooter that they want to look at a shot to determine if there needs to be a call on the hit. This way they're giving notice to the shooter and not giving the impression they're sneaking up on them or invading their space. Then the rules become cut and dry and there can be no dispute as to who's wrong and who's right.

You can't anticipate all possibilities in advance but if you keep fine tuning the rules after each incident, you will have less problems to deal with over time.

Maybe you could go back and give it another try.

Fran

nhp
10-02-2003, 11:14 AM
Nah, there are too many nits in handicapped tournaments. Even some players who used to be nice have now turned into nits, I think the virus is spreading.

Chris in NC
10-02-2003, 11:58 AM
You were not wrong at all. In fact the appropriate action would be to warn player A that if he continued to argue with you about this, you would disqualify him on the spot! The only time an opponent (sitting in their chair) is allowed to get up and approach the table is to check out whether an upcoming shot by the shooter may need to be witnessed by the TD - just as the situation you described. As long as he approaches the table or asks the shooter how they intend to play the shot well before the shooter is in to their pre-shot routine, it is perfectly fine.

Remember, as a TD you are always in charge and under no circumstances should you ever allow any attitude from any players regarding your ruling. Of course, it is assumed that you should know the rules well enough that you know you are right. - Chris in NC

Fran Crimi
10-02-2003, 02:24 PM
I don't see any rule in the BCA Rule Book that states a player may get out of his seat at any time to look at his opponent's shot. True, there is an allowance for the seated player to request a call on a hit, however, that is also not in the rule book, so it is up to the TD as to how he wishes to manage it.

There is a rule in the BCA Rule book (General Rules: 3.41, Interference) that states: "If the non shooting player distracts his opponent or interferes with his play, he has fouled."

Since there is no rule with regard to how the non shooting player should proceed if he feels a referee may be needed, the TD can't do anything about it if he doesn't set any rules for that, however, it really does interfere with the shooter when a player gets up out of their chair to look at a shot, unannounced.

As I posted before, the best way to do that would be to announce from your chair that you would like to look at the shot to determine if a ref needs to be called. It's not perfect, but it's a lot better than sneaking up on your opponent.

I've noticed that most players on the pro tour will ask from their chair. Some don't however, and it is very distracting. In fact in one match I remember we were on the shot clock and my opponent got up to look at the shot. It was a difficult kick that I was in the middle of measuring and I had to start all over. I looked up at the shot clock person and they didn't stop the clock. I had about 2 seconds to decide to say something to the shot clock person, and I really felt the pressure of the clock ticking away. Rather than create a scene I decided to recalculate the hit and to the best I can. I miscued (it was hill-hill) and lost the match. I should have stopped the match, but all of that could have been avoided if my opponent stayed in her chair and asked to look at the shot. Then the clock would have been stopped and I wouldn't have been faced with that decision, due to no fault of my own.

Fran

Barbara
10-02-2003, 06:03 PM
Fran,

You give me new stuff to talk about at this weekend's event player's meeting.

Thank you.

Barbara

tateuts
10-02-2003, 08:17 PM
Hi Nat!

Getting up at the crack of noon on Saturdays was a little much for you, huh?

Well, I know you would make a fair call. Personally, I think player B was well within their rights to approach the table to review the close hit situation and call for a ref - since the opponent was not set up to shoot. This may be a distraction but it's a necessary one. Player "A" was out of line complaining about it. I don't think yelling "time out" over the blaring juke box would be any better or less distracting, especially to players on the surrounding tables.

Hopefully people approach these kind of league and local tournaments with a good attitude. Honestly, from what I've seen, the players have been very respectful of one another at the USPPA events.

I didn't know about the "distraction" foul rule until Fran brought it up, but it's so poorly written and general that it's almost meaningless.

Hope to see you soon,

Chris

Rod
10-02-2003, 10:29 PM
Your fine on your thinking, you should have grabbed player A by the ear an threatened to twist it off if he doesn't quit whining! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Man, the cry babies in pool, why the hell do they even play this game?

At any rate, if you run this tourney or any more, you need to establish yourself from the begining. Have a meeting before each one to briefly go over any changes or just to state house and tourney rules. I have run many tournaments so I'll tell you this; once they find out your strick on how the tournament is run they will give you respect. If you let them argue you'll never have their respect. It is important you know the game rules and the instructions to the referee's. Your probably going to make a mistake, it happens, just don't let certain players get carried away. They can run the risk of not getting to play there again, you know? You do need support from the owner, if you decide to S_Can a player that doesn't conform. In my case I was the owner. With direct confrontation to troublemakers I only had to throw out two or three people in a few years.
I had to throw out lots of people, but only two or three pool tournament players. LOL

Rod

nhp
10-02-2003, 11:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> Hi Nat!

Getting up at the crack of noon on Saturdays was a little much for you, huh?

Well, I know you would make a fair call. Personally, I think player B was well within their rights to approach the table to review the close hit situation and call for a ref - since the opponent was not set up to shoot. This may be a distraction but it's a necessary one. Player "A" was out of line complaining about it. I don't think yelling "time out" over the blaring juke box would be any better or less distracting, especially to players on the surrounding tables.

Hopefully people approach these kind of league and local tournaments with a good attitude. Honestly, from what I've seen, the players have been very respectful of one another at the USPPA events.

I didn't know about the "distraction" foul rule until Fran brought it up, but it's so poorly written and general that it's almost meaningless.

Hope to see you soon,

Chris

<hr /></blockquote>

Hey Chris, how are you? If there were more players like you in the USPPA I'd probably enjoy doing it alot more. I'm pretty sure you know who I'm talking about, he causes problems just about every week. The other reason I quit is because when I am out with my friends Friday night I hate having to go home early, and because of school I usually only see my friends Friday and Saturday.

nhp
10-02-2003, 11:23 PM
Also, there have been many worse instances than the situation I just explained. There was one instance where I had a player, who was also somewhat of a friend to me, yell and cuss at me because a 40 speed ran 5 balls and won the match at hill-hill. Being the tournament director, I can't lose my temper and yell back, no matter how much I was disrespected. It gets frustrating after a while.

Ralph S.
10-03-2003, 12:14 AM
You made the right call in my opinion. I have been there before and it aint always as easy as it seems. One thing I have learned though is that many, not all , but many pool players can be very petty reguardless of their skill level.

AndyG
10-03-2003, 06:03 AM
Sometimes you feel as if you're running a day care center. Just last week in my local 8 ball event, I had 2 players arguing over who should flip the coin for the break. I almost lost it on that one. I had them go back to the table and lag.

Every event is a new adventure for the TD. After doing this for 20 years, I'm still amazed over how childish some adults can be. . .. . . but, I wouldn't trade it for anything!!!

AndyG

dg-in-centralpa
10-03-2003, 06:14 AM
My thought is that you made the right call. All the tournaments that I play in, if there is a questionable hit and you don't call for a ref to watch the shot, the ref calls in favor of the shooter. No ifs, ands, or buts.

DG - only my opinion

8 ball ho
10-03-2003, 04:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Until a week ago, I used to direct USPPA tournaments at the local poolhall. The reasons why I stopped running the tournaments is for one, I don't like waking up early on Saturdays, and two, I have to deal with people who whine and complain alot. If I go in favor of one person, the other person gets mad at me, so I am sick of it. There was one situation where in a match, player A got left with the 7 and 8 ball close to each other, and in order to cut the ball in the pocket he would come very close to the 8 ball (in a game of 9-ball). Player A was standing at the table, deciding what he was going to do. Player B, who was sitting behind player A, gets up out of his chair, completely out of player A's line of sight, and checks to see if he should call me to watch the hit. Player A notices player B out of the corner of his eye, and gets in an argument with him about disturbing his train of thought. Player B's argument was that he was just checking if he needed to call me to referee the shot, and player A's argument was that he disturbed his concentration. I told player A that since he was not down on the shot, and simply standing at the table, player B had a right to get up and look since player A was standing in front of him. When player B got up, he was completely behind Player A, and player A must have noticed him by seeing his shadow move or something. Anyways, player A got upset and told me that I was wrong. What do you think? Was I wrong? I usually deal with situations like this every week, so I got a little tired of it. <hr /></blockquote>

Oh please Ref, dont quit, say it ain't so. We don't have enough of you guys now, we don't need to lose one more. Yes, you were right in your call. We need you to yell and and to cuss and fuss at. If you leave, all I will have left is to take it out on my boyfriend or kick my cat. We need Refs to bruise and abuse, it makes us feel good. Look at it this way, if it was baseball, you would have got spit in your face and dirt kicked on your shoes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif