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View Full Version : Who shot 1,000 for an Accustat match?



phil in sofla
10-07-2003, 01:37 PM
I was watching the 2002 US Open 9-Ball finals the last couple of days, and the commentary mentioned in passing that only one person had ever been scored at 1.000, 'batted a thousand,' a perfect score, in all the history of Accustat taped matches.

I heard that the opponent suffering through such a flawless performance from whomever was Buddy Hall, but I missed who his tormentor was. Mike Sigel was commenting in the booth, and I sorta thought it might have been mentioned because it had been Sigel, but I missed the name.

Some questions:

1. First, who was the shooter that accomplished this?
2. If that had never been done before or since as of September 2002, has it been done since then?
3. How many 9-ball matches has Accustat taped, making for what kind of percentage against this occuring (1 in 10,000, or what)?
4. Even if Accustat hasn't recorded a perfect (no misses) match except this one, even as of now, they only record a small fraction of the matches at a given tournament. So, do you think it has happened far more than once at the pro level, and have YOU ever seen a 'perfect' match of that kind yourself?
5. Lastly, how subjective is the Accustat rating? I have heard that if you miss shape, and elect to play safe because your angle isn't what you expected to make your next ball, even if you play safe correctly, you'd be marked down on the first shot as missing. Is that true, and who makes these decisions?

Steve Lipsky
10-07-2003, 02:01 PM
Hi Phil. I can answer a few of your questions. I know that Mika has shot a 1.000, although I think that it may have only been a race to 7 (Derby City?). I thought he was one of two to have done it, but I suppose I am wrong.

The Accu-Stats decisions are indeed very subjective, but over the long run they balance out. If you do a search on it you will find some interesting posts.

You are definitely right about there being a multitude of perfect sets played. I would say that anyone at the A level or above has played a perfect set ('specially a race-to-7). The fact that it's done so rarely on AccuStats is, imo, because:

1) They tape very few matches (like you say)
2) The AccuStats table, from what I hear, usually plays poorly (lights do strange things)
3) Opening jitters (from being taped) might create a few early errors, negating the possibility of a 1.000

My guess would be that AccuStats probably tapes around 30 matches a year, and they've been around for approximately 15 years. Let's round up and go with 500 matches (if I'm within 300 matches I will be happy /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

- Steve

Popcorn
10-07-2003, 02:03 PM
I think Wade Crane shot a 1000 and maybe also Hopkins. Those numbers can be a little deceptive sometimes. I shot a higher number in an accu stats match and lost. The other player, shot under 800. and I shot over 900.

Voodoo Daddy
10-07-2003, 02:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> I think Wade Crane shot a 1000 and maybe also Hopkins. Those numbers can be a little deceptive sometimes. I shot a higher number in an accu stats match and lost. The other player, shot under 800. and I shot over 900. <hr /></blockquote>

Popcorn knows his stuff...Crane shot 1.000 in a FINAL {Last Call For 9-Ball?} and Hopkins shot 1.000 against my old friend Tom Brown!!

Popcorn
10-07-2003, 02:13 PM
They used to tape almost all the matches in order the score them. No commentary or anything just a camera set up and then they would use the tape to score the match later. They also scored them with live people on every table keeping score. That is every match played in the tournament. It would have to be many thousands. I bet I have scored a few hundred myself alone when I would help pat. His records are pretty good over the time he has been doing it. By the way, congratulations on your win. Maybe that will put to rest the rumors that no one one this board can run 3 balls, we know at least one can.

phil in sofla
10-07-2003, 02:26 PM
Not especially familiar with Accustat tapes or their rankings, but at the Open this year, I saw a couple of players win with lower ratings than their opponents. When Favio Petroni beat Earl Strickland to put him on the losers side, Favio went about .844, and Earl, about .917, prompting Earl to bark out 'that guy's a joke' as he was unscrewing his cue. (Favio missed quite a bit more, but Earl missed at more critical times). Frankie Hernandez had Horsfal down 8-2, ended up shooting about .920, but lost 11-8.

Cueless Joey
10-07-2003, 02:47 PM
Jose Parica shot 1.000 against Tony Robles back in the last Legends of 9-Ball at the Commerce Casino in L.A.
Jose shot lights out that year and won the Player of the Year. This was back in '97 if I remember it right.
It wasn't taped however. But Jose' match(parts only) with Rodney Morris and final match against Efren is on one tape.
Jose drilled them both.

Fred Agnir
10-07-2003, 04:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr> I was watching the 2002 US Open 9-Ball finals the last couple of days, and the commentary mentioned in passing that only one person had ever been scored at 1.000, 'batted a thousand,' a perfect score, in all the history of Accustat taped matches.<hr /></blockquote>

That would be Billy Johnson aka Wade Crane. The only person that I've heard of that got a perfect 1.000 in the finals of an Accustat-taped tournament.

Fred

Steve Lipsky
10-08-2003, 10:57 AM
Hi Phil. I just went to Accu-Stats.com and did a search for "1.000". The only match returned was:

D3-9B7:* Mika Immonen (1.000) defeats Johnny Archer (.788) 7-3 And John Pinegar (.821) defeats John Hager Jr. (.500) 7-1

I am sure all the other matches spoken of in this thread are accurate, but for some reason are not appearing in the search. Weird.

- Steve

Fred Agnir
10-08-2003, 12:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Hi Phil. I just went to Accu-Stats.com and did a search for "1.000". The only match returned was:

D3-9B7:* Mika Immonen (1.000) defeats Johnny Archer (.788) 7-3 And John Pinegar (.821) defeats John Hager Jr. (.500) 7-1

I am sure all the other matches spoken of in this thread are accurate, but for some reason are not appearing in the search. Weird.

- Steve <hr /></blockquote> I wonder about this. I said "taped" previously but that might not be true. Accustats most likely was a "stats" company before it was a "video company." It might be that the Wade Crane match was the only finals that had an Accustats 1.000. I assumed it was taped, but maybe it wasn't and therefore the tape wouldn't be found.

Fred

jjinfla
10-08-2003, 07:01 PM
What happened to all the Capelle fans? I'm sure you read "Play your best nine ball". Must not have gotten all the way through it. On page 453 he lists the 11 players with matches above .950. Mika got his 1.000 at the 2001 Derby City Classic III but that was a race to 7. The book was written in 2001 so there may be more now. The 3rd highest on the list with a .970 is Allison Fisher. Not bad for a girl. LOL.

Jake

Fred Agnir
10-08-2003, 08:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> What happened to all the Capelle fans? I'm sure you read "Play your best nine ball". Must not have gotten all the way through it. On page 453 he lists the 11 players with matches above .950. Mika got his 1.000 at the 2001 Derby City Classic III but that was a race to 7. The book was written in 2001 so there may be more now. The 3rd highest on the list with a .970 is Allison Fisher. Not bad for a girl. LOL.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>If Capelle didn't list Wade Crane's 1.000, then I've lost all respect for him.

Fred

Bob C
10-08-2003, 10:34 PM
Many of the matches that Accu-Stats used to offer are no longer listed in their catalog. Whether or not they available as a special order, I don't know. Some of the earlier tapes use one unmanned camera and no commentary.

NH_Steve
10-09-2003, 06:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>If Capelle didn't list Wade Crane's 1.000, then I've lost all respect for him.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>You'd lose all your respect over that one little omission? Man, you are one tough customer /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

jjinfla
10-09-2003, 06:45 AM
Fred, Pat Fleming created Accu-Stats in 1983. He began recording video matches in 1987. The first matches were video and then Billy Incardona convinced Pat that he, Billy, should do live commentory (according to Byrne)and they connected a microphone to the VCR.

When was this perfect game that you say Crane had?

Jake

Fred Agnir
10-09-2003, 06:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Fred, Pat Fleming created Accu-Stats in 1983. He began recording video matches in 1987. The first matches were video and then Billy Incardona convinced Pat that he, Billy, should do live commentory (according to Byrne)and they connected a microphone to the VCR.

When was this perfect game that you say Crane had?

Jake <hr /></blockquote> I think the first I heard of it was in 1986 or '87. So, that's a good bet it came before the video-taping.

If anyone out there has that lame-o vidoe from Key Media "Learn from the Best," they mention it there as well. That video I believe was made among many videos at a one-time invitational. I've got several of those early tapes, and on one of them, Wade Crane is playing 8-ball vs. Jimmy Fusco. The announcer (Lisciotti, Sigel, Rempe) talk about his perfect Accu-stats 1.000.

Again, if memory serves, which it usually doesn't, Wade Crane was Player of the Year in one of the magazines in '85 or '86. One of those years, I'd guess, is the year the 1.000 happened.

Fred

Popcorn
10-09-2003, 10:32 AM
Pat started doing the stats as a way of handicapping and scoring 9 ball. At first it was done on a score sheet by someone watching the match. Pat would spend an hour or so training the score keepers. They scored every match of the tournament. This created a data base of I would say thousands of matches. There was problems though with the scoring, because some of scoring was subjective depending on the score keeper. The first time I scored was in 1983. I had problems right away because I did not want to score a two way shot as a miss. Pat and I talked about it and he did not want me injecting my opinions or trying to guess what the player is doing. After a while Pat started setting up cameras to tape the matches partly because it was such a hassle training the score keepers and he did not completely trust the results. The cameras were no big deal to do, he just set them up where they could see the table and later scored the match from the tape. He would actually score them in fast forward he was so good at it. The tapes were just taped over once the match was on paper so none of these tapes exist anymore. It wasn't till people began asking to buy copies of the tapes that Accu-Stats video was born. First with just one stationary camera, then several, then a camera operator, commentary and so on till it became what you see today. As far as the Wade Crane match goes, it was in the Resorts Last Call for 9 Ball in 1985. I have the August 1985 Billiard News here in front of me now. The tournament was a race to 7, 2 out of 3 sets. In the finals Wade played Hall. Wade won the first set 7 to 3 and in the second set he ran the first 5 racks, on the sixth he made a ball and played a successful safe then ran out the set. The deal with the Accu stats is there are thousands of matches recorded on paper but tapes were not kept. I remember Pat even after they were selling the tapes, complaining about the cost of all the tapes. If a match was no big deal or an unknown players he did not keep the tapes. Only so many of the tapes are really sellable anyway. I remember a local player coming over asking if he could buy the tape of his match, only to find it had been taped over. The paper scoring is still done, I did it just in the last few years on a televised match, so the guy in the booth would have a quick reference in case he missed something. I ended up doing it for 10 hours that day, and I had the best seat for the finals, they even did a close up of me scoring the match. Anyway I still have score sheets around somewhere. I will look for them and will scan one and post it. Some of you guys may find it interesting how the numbers are arrived at. So many people have scored matches over the years, I am surprised no body on the board here has mentioned having done it.

Rod
10-09-2003, 10:58 AM
I played in a couple of pro events with Accu-Stats keeping track entered directly into a computer. I was asked by a local promoter to keep score at some of the local events. I had to pass, I don't do scoring. I do know a number of people that did however. I think it is the best system out there, but finding people to keep score at the local level isn't likely to happen anytime soon. It may be different depending on the area but that is what happened here.

Rod

Popcorn
10-09-2003, 11:15 AM
Now that I am thinking about it, the last time I did it, it was on a card that went into a scaner of somekind that read it and stored the results.

patscue
10-09-2003, 07:34 PM
I'm Pat Fleming and I'm surprised at how accurate some of the posts are on this thread, but I'll clear up some of the confusion.
1) Only one person shot a 1.000 that was captured on video. It was Mika Immonen's match against Johnny Archer at one of the Derby City Classics. It was a race to seven.
2) Often times a player being taped in a race to eleven will shoot 1.000 past the seventh rack won. Several players shot 1.000 up to the tenth rack won.
3) Accu-Stats has scored at least three 1.000's without video verification. Wade Crane shot 1.000 in a race to seven in the finals in Atlantic City against Buddy Hall. Allen Hopkins shot 1.000 at the Sands Regency in a race to nine. Jose Parica shot a 1.000 in a race to eleven at the Commerce Casino.
4) I would guess that there may be as many as 100 matches posting a 1.000 score played at major events that were not videotaped nor scored by Accu-Stats.
5)Accu-Stats has taped several thousand matches, usually the best in the field.
6) Not often, but sometimes the player with the lower Accu-stats score wins, usually when he commits errors and doesn't pay the price by leaving his opponent hooked, for example.
I hope this clears up some of the 1.000 related questions.

Scott Lee
10-09-2003, 09:27 PM
Pat...Welcome to the CCB! We're all glad to have you post here, and I personally want to thank you for the great contribution you've made to further the sport of pool. One of the greatest learning tools is the ability to study videotape...whether it is of yourself (like we BCA Instructors do with our students), or the ability to study top players under pressure...which is what AccuStats has provided for more than 15 yrs! You have furthered the sport, by giving thousands of up and coming players the chance to study past and present champions, both in terms of shot execution and strategy. Often I will turn the audio off, while I'm watching an AccuStats match, and figure my own strategy. Then, rewind it and listen to the commentary, to see if it's the same! LOL Sometimes it is...sometimes it isn't! Thanks...and keep up the good work! Sure hope you continue to post. Are you offering matches in DVD format yet?

Scott Lee

Fred Agnir
10-10-2003, 06:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr. Accu-Stats, Pat Fleming:</font><hr> I'm Pat Fleming ... I'll clear up some of the confusion.
<hr /></blockquote>Eh, what would you know, anyway? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Thanks Pat.

Fred &lt;~~~ welcome to the best pool forum on the internet

jjinfla
10-10-2003, 06:58 AM
Hi Pat,

Perhaps during a break or a lull in your video you can have the commentator briefly explain how the Accu-Stats figure is derived.

Basically I know that it is total errors divided by total shots and Capelle did list the errors in his book. Are they accurate? And are still the ones you use?

It would be nice if the commentators would point out the errors. Maybe even keep a running total. But then again, that might detract from the game.

Perhaps you can publish an Accu-Stats rating system packet. Where you explain the system, how you devised it, with rating cards that spectators can use when they go and watch matches.

Sorta like the scorecard program that you can buy at a baseball game. Wish I would have kept all of those that I filled out as a kid.

Jake

Kato
10-10-2003, 08:52 AM
Scott, I ordered the Bustamante/Efren matchup from the U.S. Open on DVD. They told me 2 months or so. I've only got 10 tapes or so in my Accustats collection. I'd love to just buy DVD's exclusively.

Kato

Eric.
10-10-2003, 12:39 PM
Hey Pat,

Welcome aboard! I just got my tapes(from last week), thank you. Haven't seen you since the West End tourneys, hope all is well with you.


Eric

phil in sofla
10-10-2003, 02:52 PM
Although I knew this was the place to get this question answered, little did I realize the in-depth knowledge I could tap.

And to have the horse's mouth appear to confirm it all is just too much. And Pat, when they replaced you as the announcer on Jeopardy, they made a big mistake! You were the best, but the show's loss has been pooldom's gain!

Fred Agnir
10-10-2003, 04:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote phil in sofla:</font><hr> And Pat, when they replaced you as the announcer on Jeopardy, they made a big mistake! You were the best, but the show's loss has been pooldom's gain!

<hr /></blockquote>LOL!!!!

Fred &lt;~~~ see what drinking does?