View Full Version : Arguing a foul
10-07-2003, 01:55 PM
Last night we had a VERY bad incident during league play.
My wife SL3 was playing a SL6. He got up 3-0. He commits a foul by touching the cueball with his stick during pre-shot. Our captain calls foul and he gets upset claiming "nobody calls that foul". The foul holds and he gives up ball in hand. My wife runs down to the 8 and misses, he makes a couple and chokes. She makes the 8 ball and wins that game. He complains a little about the BIH foul and lets it go saying 'it won't make a difference' and so on and so forth. She breaks and runs most of her's and misses. He gets up and runs down to his last object ball and chokes. She runs the rest of hers and leaves herself a bank on the 8 into the side. Our captain calls time-out, they talk about it, she lays down on the table doing pre-shot, our captain watches her stroke from the opposite side of the table and stops her and corrects her english slightly. He goes and sits down. She makes the adjustment, resets and makes a beautiful shot to win the match. Her opponent shakes her hand and says good shot, good game and so on, and then after walking away he comes back saying that was a foul our captain commited by redirecting her after the time-out. We say the time-out wasn't over because he never left the table. And all hell breaks loose. This guy wants to re-shoot the game, all the while saying, "If he (our captain) is gonna play by the rules he is to". Finally after about 20 minutes or so of arguing someone calls the league operator and he confirms the 'no foul'. We go on the win 5-0 overall. Only after the guy left did his teammates express embarrassment over his actions.
During this whole thing I started thinking I wonder how many people do the arguing thing just to try and get a second chance. They will bitch and raise hell until the opposing team just lets them have their way and do a re-shot.
Have any of you seen a player or team do just that?
Do they get away with it?
I hope not.
10-07-2003, 02:06 PM
I have seen similar arguments in league, but not often. Any time you get a large number of personalities involved in anything, you are bound to get a few that like to be real jerks. (been reading some of the posts here lately?????) I usually try to ignore them, but in the case you described, I think the only thing was to get the LO involved to make a call. (One which I happen to agree with. The time out isn't over until the coach leaves and the player makes the shot)
Consider the source and move ahead.
10-07-2003, 02:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr>....He commits a foul by touching the cueball with his stick during pre-shot. Our captain calls foul and he gets upset claiming "nobody calls that foul".
<font color="blue">Everybody I know calls that foul.</font color>
..... after walking away he comes back saying that was a foul our captain commited by redirecting her after the time-out. We say the time-out wasn't over because he never left the table.
<font color="blue">I don't think the time-out is over until she strikes the cue ball. </font color>
......During this whole thing I started thinking I wonder how many people do the arguing thing just to try and get a second chance. They will bitch and raise hell until the opposing team just lets them have their way and do a re-shot.
Have any of you seen a player or team do just that?
Do they get away with it?
<font color="blue">I've seen this twice I that I remember. One was a drunk guy who wanted to play the game again. We gave in even though we were right. Our guy beat him...again /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Another time when I was new to the league I called a foul on a veteran 6. He went wild on me saying "what the hell do you know" and stuff. I held my ground and we're friends now.
<font color="blue">League arguments. Yuck, what a bummer. </font color>
10-07-2003, 02:12 PM
This may not directly relate to your question, but I'm unclear on a couple of details. One, did the other guy bump the CB with the ferrule, shaft or with the tip? A tip bump is certainly an automatic BCA foul, but maybe not an APA, I never played APA. Next I'm bothered by coaching of any kind, but I am aware that certain leagues allows it, so I accept it. In the same breath it makes me wonder whether your player whom was just coached, is then on the table in pre-shot,,,if that hasn't in fact ended the coaching period. It just seems too cumbersome if the coaching can banter back and forth like that. I would be prone to be bitchy too, but maybe that's the accepted protocol for coaching in your league.
I have indeed seen intentional arguers for the purpose of bullying a win. Luckily there aren't that many around...sid
10-07-2003, 02:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> This may not directly relate to your question, but I'm unclear on a couple of details. One, did the other guy bump the CB with the ferrule, shaft or with the tip?
He bumped it with the tip I believe, but it doesn't matter because the cue ball is always live. If he'd brushed it with his shirt it would have been a foul.
I'm bothered by coaching of any kind, but I am aware that certain leagues allows it, so I accept it. In the same breath it makes me wonder whether your player whom was just coached, is then on the table in pre-shot,,,if that hasn't in fact ended the coaching period.
Just as Wally said, the time-out ends with the actual shot, or when the cueball is struck.
That sort of thing is bound to happen if you play leagues long enough. The good part is, it isn't likely to happen very often. We had a number of leagues out of our room. It could go for months without an incident. When one happened though, it could get violent. Like I say it could but hopefully I or someone calmed it down before something like that happened.
Many times someone loses or feels like a wrong call was made. Whatever the reason certain people say it's OK, when really they hold something inside. In time it churns inside them and they can't hold back any longer. Some people just hate to lose and will do anything, plus pass the blame elsewhere. Then add some drinks to the mixture and you have someone that is drunk, plus doesn't take responsibility for their actions. Yes it happens, people try that crap, don't let them get away with it either. That old line of nobody calls that foul is a joke? Right?
phil in sofla
10-07-2003, 03:02 PM
Our league has the 'play the game over' option as the ultimate answer, if the players and/or captains cannot (or WILL NOT) come to an agreement on what happened and what should be the result. Unfortunately, this means that if you could get your own captain to refuse to agree you committed a foul, yes, you'd be rewarded with another rack to try to win in a second game. I haven't seen that happen, much-- mainly captains are objective enough to agree their guy committed a foul, and then the players must abide by the captains' decision. But the rule is flawed, and ripe for abuse by anyone who chooses to do so.
Something similar, but almost backwards, happened to me last week. Opponent, a newbie in the league, said I fouled one of her object balls as I pocketed the 8. Foul on the 8 ball shot, and it goes, is a loss. I honestly didn't feel the foul, if it occurred, which would have been behind me on my last practice stroke, nor could I remember that ball being somewhere else than where it was after the 8 went. Yet I had no reason to disbelieve her claim, just no way to confirm it either. We asked for her captain, and my co-captain, to verify or deny, and neither had been watching to say one way or the other. In the meantime, I've been on the stall all game, the 4th in the set, to allow our 5th guy to arrive and not forfeit the game. So HER captain says disputes go to the captains, and if they cannot agree, the game is played over, to which I readily agreed. But then her captain mentions I've been stalling, trying to get Mark to show before he forfeits. My opponent says, then no, I should be the winner, with no second game played, and she'll take the loss. JUST as she said that, Mark arrives in time for the next game.
I felt badly, not that I felt I should lose the game that way, but that her call should have at LEAST gotten her a second game on the dispute, if not the ruling that she won the first game. I don't know if it was a strategic move she was thinking of (so they might get the 5th game on the forfeit), or whether it was just that she was new, I'd been around for some years, and she didn't want to make a fuss.
10-07-2003, 03:13 PM
The only arguments I've had in the pool hall have been over racking. Some of the players in my (former -- I no longer play there) APA league take serious offense if you demand a tight rack. Even if the head ball is a quarter inch off the rack, they'll give you a dirty look if you ask for a rerack. One opponent even told me I should rack them myself! (I did, and then beat him good and proper.) The only thing to do is try to keep your cool, because then your opponent is the only person who ends up looking bad...
-CF <--- wishes he could take his own advice more often...
10-07-2003, 03:58 PM
brushed it with his shirt it would have been a foul."
I can't honestly remember the last time I accidentally moved a CB except by accidentally hitting it with the tip, and getting dinged for the foul(I ain't that clean, I just can't remember), but yes, you are certainly correct, and I was surely called for it with a foul, I get confused with the BIH rules differentiation. As far as the coaching thing...I've probably played in maybe less than half a dozen organized events in my pool playing career where coaching was allowed. I learned something new about the coached inning with this post, thanks...sid
10-07-2003, 04:02 PM
I captained a league team for two seasons and have seen this and several other similar situations. I assume you are playing APA? If so, then you are right the opponent was wrong, on both counts..then bih foul and coaching foul. I am not sure how all Valley leagues are set up but in ours, there was a no coaching rule in place during matches. This save a lot of arguements and also helped the more novice players learn from mistakes during game situations.
10-07-2003, 10:53 PM
Sounds to me you went to a pool game and a hocky game broke out. lo lo .that is why I dontplay league play. yak yak yak shoot pool .
10-08-2003, 03:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stick8:</font><hr> Sounds to me you went to a pool game and a hocky game broke out. lo lo .<hr /></blockquote>
It nearly became just that.
10-08-2003, 03:18 PM
In my league, we don't play APA, but if the two players can't come to an agreement whether it was or wasn't a foul, the captains have to decide. If that doesn't work, then the game is replayed. I had a teamate years ago argued a foul for 10 minutes. His opponent gave in. After the game he admitted that it was a foul, he just wanted to see if he could get away with it. That was the last he played on my team.
10-08-2003, 10:09 PM
Do you not have a TD in leigue play?? When I ran tournys I was the man.;::; you have to have some one in charge.I ran tournys for 15-20 yrs no problem.
10-09-2003, 10:30 AM
Last night, VNEA league game, my team mate ends up on the eight with the cue ball frozen to it. His opponent called a ref on the shot, my captain went to make the call. Our team mate made the shot with a masse-like stroke. He hit the eight in the corner, the cue ball rolled a little past the contact point and then draw about 2 feet. Our captain call foul and we lose the game.
I got up in disagreement asking why this was a foul as the cue ball demonstrated backspin wich in my mind prove the good hit. The other team captain said that if the cue ball passes the contact point it's a foul.
I argued that the cue ball could be moving forward in the air and then bite the cloth to draw and it would be a clean hit. He argued that the rules are written like that. I take the rule book and read the push definition. According to the definition the hit was good.
My captain called the league manager, he said the hit was good but the call stand. We lost the game and the round on this shot.
Sometimes arguing can be good as it makes everyone aware of what the rule is. In our case, I made my point and the ruling stand. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
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