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Mr Ingrate
10-08-2003, 09:42 AM
Had this discussion at league last night. It is ok to use your cue to position the cue ball when you have ball in hand. However, if you use your cue to move the ball forward, it is a foul. Here is the rule that was quoted:

3.40 CUE BALL IN HAND FOUL
During cue ball in hand placement, the player may use his hand or any part of his cue (including the tip) to position the cue ball. When placing the cue ball in position, any forward stroke motion of the cue stick contacting the cue ball will be considered a foul if not a legal shot.

Seems like this could cause a lot of problems if anyone decided to call a foul when a player adjusts the cue ball forward using his shaft on top of the ball.

CrispyFish
10-08-2003, 09:44 AM
This is easy enough to solve: don't use your cue to position the cue ball!

Iowashark
10-08-2003, 10:19 AM
When I played last year in a Valley sponsored tournament, I saw lots of players getting called for a foul very similar to this one. I don't have a rule book handy, but as I heard a referee state it to a player that if the cue ball makes contact with the ferrule or tip during adjustment of the ball then it was a foul. The shaft was apparently a legal form of adjusting the cue ball. I never really researched into other sanctions like BCA or APA about this ruling though. Chances are it is strictly a VNEA rule and others are more strict on how to adjust the cue ball.

~~~Don't quote me on this as I haven't seen it in a rule book, only heard it from the ref.


~ Dave

Mr Ingrate
10-08-2003, 11:08 AM
It is my argument that using the shaft to position the ball forward is NOT a "forward STROKE motion" and should be allowed. There are a number of BCA referees that frequent this board. What is your interpretation of this rule.

9 Ball Road Pro
10-08-2003, 11:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr> It is my argument that using the shaft to position the ball forward is NOT a "forward STROKE motion" and should be allowed. There are a number of BCA referees that frequent this board. What is your interpretation of this rule. <hr /></blockquote>


When you have cue ball in hand, do that, use your hand, then you are safe, that is a good habit to adopt. There are too many people out there who want to beat you with their rule book and not their cue. Unfortunately, sometimes that does happen.

SPetty
10-08-2003, 12:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr> It is my argument that using the shaft to position the ball forward is NOT a "forward STROKE motion" and should be allowed. There are a number of BCA referees that frequent this board. What is your interpretation of this rule. <hr /></blockquote>I'm not a BCA referee, but that is exactly my interpretation of the situation you describe. I also believe the intent of the rule was to disallow moving the cue ball forward with the tip of your cue.

So, moving the cue ball forward under the cue is not a foul, whether it touches the ferrule or not. Moving the cue ball forward with the leading front part of the tip is a foul.

But, let's wait for the real refs to show up!

Fred Agnir
10-08-2003, 12:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr> It is my argument that using the shaft to position the ball forward is NOT a "forward STROKE motion" and should be allowed. There are a number of BCA referees that frequent this board. What is your interpretation of this rule. <hr /></blockquote>

I think the rule wording twisted itself into knots. In an attempt to clarify what they meant, they added words that could be confusing.

The term that the ruling use is "forward stroke motion" as you say, not just "forward motion." So, moving the cueball forward with the shaft is fine, since you're not stroking.

Fred

magicman
10-08-2003, 12:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Mr Ingrate:</font><hr> It is my argument that using the shaft to position the ball forward is NOT a "forward STROKE motion" and should be allowed. There are a number of BCA referees that frequent this board. What is your interpretation of this rule. <hr /></blockquote>


Moving the cue ball around in any match with your tip, ferrule or shaft, is just asking for it. Somebody is going to cause you a riff. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I think the rule wording twisted itself into knots. In an attempt to clarify what they meant, they added words that could be confusing.

The term that the ruling use is "forward stroke motion" as you say, not just "forward motion." So, moving the cueball forward with the shaft is fine, since you're not stroking.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Cueless Joey
10-08-2003, 12:40 PM
Boy, I thought only the tip can cause the foul.
Moving the ball with your ferrule I thought was legal.

dg-in-centralpa
10-08-2003, 03:40 PM
In both leagues I play in, that is a foul. Even though we aren't BCA,Valley, or APA. Just a foul.

DG

Barbara
10-08-2003, 07:09 PM
Dave,

You just can't push the CB forward with the cue tip to move the ball.

I'm surprised that the BCA allows you to use the cue tip to move the ball forward. It just has to be a deliberate push with the tip, not a stroke forward to move it.

Barbara

Barbara
10-08-2003, 07:24 PM
Joey,

Moving the CB with your shaft is legal. How moving the CB with your tip is legal is something that escapes me from when I was in BCA Ref School, but it is legal, as long as you don't make a formal shot of it.

I would just prefer they word it that you can't contact the CB with the tip of your cue. Now, wouldn't that be the logical thing to do?

Barbara~~~~reads Government specs for a living and programs to them---THAT'S HARD!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Barbara
10-08-2003, 07:41 PM
CF,

You're allowed to use your cue ferrule and cue tip to position the CB with BIH.

Guess what? It's a foul to touch a ball on the table with BIH. Betcha not too many people knew that one!

Barbara~~~~never uses her cue tip to position BIH...

Fred Agnir
10-08-2003, 08:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Joey,

Moving the CB with your shaft is legal. How moving the CB with your tip is legal is something that escapes me from when I was in BCA Ref School, but it is legal, as long as you don't make a formal shot of it.: <hr /></blockquote> I think it's another example of the idea of the rules getting written to cover every situation in one simple sentence, which therefore ends up not simple. If you use the ferrule and roll over the top of the cue, and maybe the side of the tip touches the cueball or maybe not, this verbage prevents some nit calling "foul."

Fred

Sid_Vicious
10-08-2003, 09:13 PM
Why the hell don't they just rule that touching the CB with any part of the cue is a foul? You have BIH after all,,,use your hands, nothing more. Such a rediculously simple solution ...sid

Rod
10-08-2003, 09:38 PM
Sid,

Because, they know the club ass people are lazy. They might accidently get exercise moving the c/b by hand. Oh and the energy consumed by a stroke, the horror of it all.

Um, it's ok by me but it isn't likely to happen anytime soon. Of course then you wouldn't want to drag the c/b from the other end, you'd have to walk down and get the thing. Oh my God more exercise! Well I guess your opponent could roll it to you.

Rod

Tom_In_Cincy
10-08-2003, 09:40 PM
The Wei Table Link.. always helpful... when needed (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/)

"A" is better than "B". It's BIH, and you stretch across the table and realize that you need to go from "B" to "A".

Is this a good time to reposition the CB with the cue stick? Or do you walk around the table and use your hand?

Is this the time your opponent calls a foul? if you use your cue to move the CB from B to A?

START(
%AN8E7%BN7W6%CD9I9%DO6I2%EX8K5%FE1N3%GK7J5%HT7E9%I L7R8%Pt1\3
%QR0E9%RS4I1%WP2F4%XQ6G3%[P2F6%\S1I0
)END

Fred Agnir
10-09-2003, 06:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Why the hell don't they just rule that touching the CB with any part of the cue is a foul? You have BIH after all,,,use your hands, nothing more. Such a rediculously simple solution ...sid <hr /></blockquote> I've thought about this, but not too long. You can't see the line with the ball in hand on some shots. The angle might be so crucial that you need to be sighting down your shaft while moving the cueball. I think everyone can see the benefit of this and would be surprised if anyone claims that they don't do this.

Another reason of course is that if you're short like me, you just can't put the ball in certain spots without using the aid of the cue.

Fred

RedHell
10-09-2003, 01:55 PM
I believe you need to be more precise than that. Touching a ball on the table with the QB or the hand holding the QB.

Is that it, or if while streching to place the QB I bump a ball with my leg, this is still a foul ???

Barbara
10-09-2003, 02:13 PM
With BIH, it is a foul to touch any balls on the table with the cue ball in hand. Rule 3.22. So no, touching a ball with your leg is not a foul. The foul comes from moving the CB around and/or placing it or positioning it on the table.

Barbara

Fred Agnir
10-09-2003, 02:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> With BIH, it is a foul to touch any balls on the table with the cue ball in hand. Rule 3.22. So no, touching a ball with your leg is not a foul. The foul comes from moving the CB around and/or placing it or positioning it on the table.

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>The rule says:

Touching any object ball with the cueball while it's in hand is a foul.

That indicates to me that ... touching an object ball with the cueball is a foul. Is that what you were saying?

Fred

Barbara
10-09-2003, 03:24 PM
[quote=Fred Agnir
Touching any object ball with the cueball while it's in hand is a foul.

That indicates to me that ... touching an object ball with the cueball is a foul. Is that what you were saying?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">Exactly.</font color>

It happened to me in Vegas the year I got certified. My opponent was trying to place the CB in a tight area. I stopped her, called a ref to watch and sure enough, she touched another ball with BIH. Boy was she surprised when the ref called foul and I got BIH.

Barbara~~~certifiable... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

RedHell
10-10-2003, 06:53 AM
I was called on that once. But in my case, it wasn't with the cue ball that I touched the ball but with a finger on the hand that was holding the cue ball. I argued that the rule was if I touch with the ball, and the ref told me that because my hand is touching the ball it is considered as the cue ball.

???

Did I get robbed ?

Barbara
10-10-2003, 10:17 AM
The call was correct.

If you touch another OB with the hand holding the CB in a BIH situation, you have fouled.

Barbara