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Bassn7
10-08-2003, 11:45 AM
As a supporter of the APA, I have to throw in my two cents. In order to protect yourself from "handicap jumps", a team captain must do a REALLY GOOD job at recruiting talent at each level of play. This means finding players that fit into each of the handicap levels that won't go up because they just aren't good enough. As they get better, over months and years, those players are removed and new weaker players should take their place. As a side note though, this area is full of pool players to choose from that are looking for teams. Proper player recruitment is the key.

If your team has numerous players jumping up in handicap, blame the team captain, not the league owner. I've got 20 years of APA team play and have NEVER been disqualified for handicap problems.

Perk
10-08-2003, 11:53 AM
I am not going to bash the APA, but I am gonna make my opinion. A league should be designed around shooting pool with your friends. I am in a group of friends that travel and shoot in pool tourneys. We are running into problems do to "handicaps" coming into play. The people I am shooting with are getting better, and some tourneys we go to are trying to keep us from entering. They are making rules to separate good players by entering rankings, or their perceptions of ones ability.
They seem to think that this is going to encourage MORE players to attend their events due to different teams winning and separating the dominate teams. What has happened actually is that there are consistently less teams at these events, and there are too many "A" players floating around cause they cant get on a team with any of their friends.

I for one am not interested in having to pick up other players all the time. I shoot pool for fun and money at times, but for me my leagues/team events are to be with my friends. With that said, I cans see why people dont like the APA format.

magicman
10-08-2003, 12:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Perk:</font><hr> I am not going to bash the APA, but I am gonna make my opinion. A league should be designed around shooting pool with your friends. I am in a group of friends that travel and shoot in pool tourneys. We are running into problems do to "handicaps" coming into play. The people I am shooting with are getting better, and some tourneys we go to are trying to keep us from entering. They are making rules to separate good players by entering rankings, or their perceptions of ones ability.
They seem to think that this is going to encourage MORE players to attend their events due to different teams winning and separating the dominate teams. What has happened actually is that there are consistently less teams at these events, and there are too many "A" players floating around cause they cant get on a team with any of their friends.

I for one am not interested in having to pick up other players all the time. I shoot pool for fun and money at times, but for me my leagues/team events are to be with my friends. With that said, I cans see why people dont like the APA format. <hr /></blockquote>

-Perk, that is why the turn over rate is so high in that league, you build a team that is a winner, they go to work on you at once tearing it down so it can never win again. It's maddening. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Jimmy B
10-08-2003, 12:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> If your team has numerous players jumping up in handicap, blame the team captain, not the league owner. I've got 20 years of APA team play and have NEVER been disqualified for handicap problems. <hr /></blockquote>


<font color="purple"> </font color> Big deal, you've never been disqualified; you say it like you've done something good. The fact is the APA is a pyramid scam and they rarely ever DQ anyone, the fact is they'd rather keep you and keep bumping you so that you keep getting new players and keep sending them cash. If you believe they are fare or care if you cheat you're wrong. What the APA want is growth, they don't want to punish cheaters and they never have, if the APA really wanted to put a stop to sand bagging they would throw people out for doing it, as it stands now there is no penalty for this behavior, if they started this you'd see a lot less sand bagging. The fact is they don't care what you do as long as you send them the money; it's all about the money. I'm shocked that someone like you can sit back and claim to be a 20-year vet and still have no clue as to the way things work. I can ask you one serious question about the APA, the answer will be easy if you've paid attention in the last 20 years. Can you honestly say that a 4 today is at the same skill level as a 4 15 years ago? JB



<font color="purple"> </font color>

Kato
10-08-2003, 01:10 PM
My team was not built around playing for 5, 10, or 20 years. I don't wish to "recruit" various talent levels. My team was a group of players that wanted to try something different. I didn't want to pick up 2 new players every season, for me it's not about going to Vegas, or winning the bread. For me it's having fun with my friends.

Shoot, Jimmy won the whole ball of wax and he'll tell it to ya straight.

Look, I understand the LO's are running a business. More players, more money, more profit. That's cool. What I wasn't gonna do is turn over players just to line somebodies pocket. What happens if I don't like my new 2? My new 4? What happens if my 6 thinks he's Efren? Well I'm sorry. I hand picked players that would:

1) Show up every week
2) Have fun interacting with the team
3) Would make it easy to captain

Well I must have done a great job because we finished first in our league and we were definitely going to Vegas.

Too many times I see captains consumed with "Going to Vegas". If that's how you want to spend your life fine. I play pool to have fun, end of story. I have a job, it's not pool.

Kato

jjinfla
10-08-2003, 01:24 PM
Hey APA 7, Always keep in mind that the APA is designed for beginners, ball bangers, beer drinkers, and maybe even C players. A team should never have more than one APA 7 on it. Or one APA 6. And their function is to teach the beginners.

My observations of the APA lead me to believe that the APA likes it when the handicaps of a team move up because then the team has to split up and form two teams. The more teams, the more money the APA receives. Which is pretty sound business mangagement to me. And from the numbers it seems to be working.

So, as a result, if players want to keep the same team they should have the maximum players on it to slow down the handicap rise. (We have 7) And they better play wisely. If a player can break and run out repeatedly, or a game only lasts 2 innings, and they win every match then they will be 7's in no time at all. And then they will be sitting and watching the 3's, 4's and 5's play.

If a team only has 5 players and they all start out as 4's and they play hard and start winning their games then they are in trouble because as soon as the 4th person moves up to a 5 they can't field a team. So they have to get some 2's and 3's on the team. But the 2's and 3's can't win so the team starts to fall in the standings and they can't play in the money cup or get a chance to go to Vegas. A real Catch 22.

Our 9-ball team won the summer session and the money cup but 4 of our team members moved up a level during that session. So if we continue to play hard and always try to win, more of our handicaps will move up and it will be tough for us to win when we play for Vegas. So we more or less decided that we will try for the money cup again in the fall session and be satisfied with that. Who knows what our handicaps will be come Spring. Or if the team will still be together.

But for all the 6's and 7's out there who can't form their own team I suggest they find a BCA team to join. But of course, 6's and 7's just might not be good enough to get on a Winning BCA team. And then you find out that you are just donating your $7 each week.

However, if having a winning team is not important and all a person wants is a place to socialize each week then have fun and enjoy the APA.

I gave up on APA 8 ball but find APA 9-ball a lot of fun. Especially since a 1 or 2 can really help the team everytime they play. They are our 7 killers. And they really enjoy it. LOL

Jake

Wally_in_Cincy
10-08-2003, 01:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr>
....Can you honestly say that a 4 today is at the same skill level as a 4 15 years ago? JB <hr /></blockquote>

I've only been playing 4 years so I would be interested in hearing the answer to this.

I assume you are saying that it is now easier to move to a higher skill level than it was 15 years ago.

pooltchr
10-08-2003, 01:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bassn7:</font><hr> If your team has numerous players jumping up in handicap, blame the team captain, not the league owner. I've got 20 years of APA team play and have NEVER been disqualified for handicap problems. <hr /></blockquote>


<font color="purple"> </font color> The fact is the APA is a pyramid scam and they rarely ever DQ anyone, What the APA want is growth, they don't want to punish cheaters and they never have, if the APA really wanted to put a stop to sand bagging they would throw people out for doing it, as it stands now there is no penalty for this behavior, if they started this you'd see a lot less sand bagging. The fact is they don't care what you do as long as you send them the money; <font color="purple"> </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Not all APA leagues operate like that. QUOTE from an flyer in with my scoresheet this week...

One of our largest poolrooms...
Paid for some players, but not all - Forced players to play on multiple teams or be banned from the bar - Changed results of certain matches after scoresheets had been signed and handed in - Manipulated team rosters at the start of the session without consent of the players - Wrote in players who were not present to avoid forfeits and control handicaps - bribed players to not show up for a match.

Soooooo this particular bar was removed from the APA for a minimum of two years. Must go before the board of governor's to see if they can be reinstated...

This is a bar that hosted over 30 APA teams. I don't think they even considered how much they would lose in dues...I think they were doing the right thing for the league. Not all LO's are just after the money...some of them try to make it right.

Fred Agnir
10-08-2003, 02:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr>
....Can you honestly say that a 4 today is at the same skill level as a 4 15 years ago? JB <hr /></blockquote>

I've only been playing 4 years so I would be interested in hearing the answer to this.

I assume you are saying that it is now easier to move to a higher skill level than it was 15 years ago. <hr /></blockquote>

Correct. It gets easier and easier, IMO, to move up in the APA as the years go by. Partly due to the number of new players that join leagues similar to the expansion effect in Major League Baseball. But, also partly due to however the handicap system has changed. I mean, there are some SL-7's out there today that would have no chance whatsoever to become an SL-7 a decade ago. IMO.


Fred's Silly APA post (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=division+author:fred+author:agnir&amp;start=1 0&amp;hl=en&amp;lr=&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;selm=5447edcf.0202060710.236acf7b%40posting.goog le.com&amp;rnum=13)

Fred

9 Ball Girl
10-08-2003, 02:16 PM
So here's my question:

So now you become a 7. I know you just don't stop getting better if you keep playing and you can't become an 8 because 7 is the highest. Do you leave your team to make room for a lower SL or do you stop playing in the league and move on to playing in Open tourneys and what have you? If you are one of those higher end 7s, would you openly admit that the competition is not strong enough anymore and if you don't, would it be considered sandbagging?

I ask these questions only because I was accused a couple of times of sandbagging. I was brought in as a 3 even after I told the LO that I was a 5 in the BCA and that I play better than a 4! But the LO said that the BCA had nothing to do with APA and that I was coming in as a 3 regardless. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif Yeah, well, that brought a lot of complaints.

Scott Lee
10-08-2003, 03:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr>

The fact is the APA is a pyramid scam and they rarely ever DQ anyone, the fact is they'd rather keep you and keep bumping you so that you keep getting new players and keep sending them cash. If you believe they are fare or care if you cheat you're wrong. What the APA want is growth, they don't want to punish cheaters and they never have, if the APA really wanted to put a stop to sand bagging they would throw people out for doing it, as it stands now there is no penalty for this behavior, if they started this you'd see a lot less sand bagging. The fact is they don't care what you do as long as you send them the money; it's all about the money. I'm shocked that someone like you can sit back and claim to be a 20-year vet and still have no clue as to the way things work. I can ask you one serious question about the APA, the answer will be easy if you've paid attention in the last 20 years. Can you honestly say that a 4 today is at the same skill level as a 4 15 years ago? JB



<font color="purple"> </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Jimmy B...As an APA League Operator for 4 years, I can tell you that you are completely off base with your generalized comments. In my league area (SW MT and SE ID) there was NO sandbagging...because (as you said) I didn't ALLOW it. Sandbagging can only occur if both players and team captains allow it to go on unnoticed. My players were instructed to write down problems on the back of the scoresheets, and either myself, or my board of governors would deal with it. Essentially, if you sandbagged in my league, I'd make you a permanent 7. Sandbag all you want as a 7! LOL

You can't call all APA L.O.'s uncaring and 'money-grubbing', because of a few "bad apples". There ARE dishonest league operators out there in all leagues, not just the APA (and occasionally they are caught, and their teams DQ'd, or removing the L.O. and forcing them to sell out...which has also happened). However, overall, the APA runs a pretty good league, and like Rich R. said, the league is about beginners (2's, 3's, &amp; 4's), not the experts! In any handicapped competition, some participants will figure out a way to cheat. That is basic human nature for some people...but they are the minority, not the majority. Folks will always try to "beat the system"...some will get away with it, some will get caught.
I think Kato's situation has more to do with the L.O., than having too many 'skilled' players on his team. As far as your comment about the history of the league and skill levels...I'd agree with you! Like Fred said...with big growth in league numbers, comes changes within how the system works. The APA wants to make the rules work for everyone. It's in their best interests to have honest league operators, and strong rules about sportsmanship and skill levels on teams. Like it or not, the APA still has twice as many players as the BCA, VNEA, &amp; TAP put together...so they must be doing something right, for the vast majority of league poolplayers out there. Their system may not be perfect (it's not), but imo, it's the best available so far, for the beginner to compete in a social environment. The fact that some captains and/or players get caught up the "going to Vegas" mentality (to the exclusion of fair play, etc) is not the league's fault.
The league operator is the last word locally...and it is up to them to correct inequalities at the local level.

Scott Lee

Jimmy B
10-08-2003, 07:42 PM
there was NO sandbagging...because (as you said) I didn't ALLOW it. I'd make you a permanent 7. Sandbag all you want as a 7! LOL

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Scott it's funny how in one line you try to say you are not like I say yet in the next you prove my point. IF someone sandbags and you catch them bane them, don't allow them to be 7's. Making someone a 7 doesn't mean you are punishing them, it says they can still play in your league even after they got caught cheating. They need to be thrown out for ever, once you do this a few times people will get the message. The other problem you admit to is that you manipulate the handicaps, it's not possible to know about every player so when you claim to check it all out yourself with a board of governors it just proves you are like every other LO, you are all guilty of manipulating SL's and it's always on the way up, I've never once heard of a board of governors set up to lower players that somehow got moved up to high, and I am sure it's because it's not as good for business. APA is a good league, but it's a better business, it's set up to grow and the system works. But IMO you should not get involved as LO, you should treat every player as a number and teach the members to keep score right, if someone gets caught sandbagging (2 or more SL's under their true level) they need to be thrown out for good along with the team captain, and their team should be put on probation for 1 year. After a few people get thrown out it would stop, trust me. I'm someone who likes the APA, I no longer play due to a crooked LO, but I've gotten much more out of it then most and I really don't want to sound like I am trashing it, I've always had fun in the APA despite my LO, as a matter of fact I had more pleasure doing good because he made things personal and I beat him at his own game. I have some friends in the national office and I've told them the stories, but the fact is if you are a successful LO they don't care what you do, because you bring in the cash. The point will always be that handicaps will never work 100% and someone will always be mad and have it for an excuse, but the system works very good as a business so why change what makes money? And you LO will always claim you aren't the bad ones and defend what puts money in your pockets. No disrespect to you, but I don't have a biased opinion, I make no money off the APA, I liked the league, just not the human element involved and the power the LO's have. JB

jjinfla
10-08-2003, 07:58 PM
9-ball girl, They actually go up to 8 and 9 in 9-ball. I guess that is the APA's way of telling them to move on to something else. Teams really don't want them. The 7's around here usually have their wife/girl friend, who is a 1 or 2, on the team. And it is their night out.

The bottom line is that if you keep winning your matches you will move up in handicap. But if you don't win your games then your team doesn't come in the money. You can go pay your $7 and lose, but who wants to do that? And what sense does it make? And the obvious sandbaggers are easy to handle - you just keep marking the defensive shots. And if you point it out to their scorekeeper he is forced to mark it on his scoresheet too.

Hopefully our team will stick together, come in 1st or 2nd this session and we wil go back for another try at the money cup without our handicaps killing us.

But HAVING to play every week gets old and I will probably only last thru the Spring session just to see how we do inthe Vegas tournament. Then I will just go back to playing in tournaments here and there. There is one somewhere every day of the week.

Jake

Fred Agnir
10-08-2003, 08:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Essentially, if you sandbagged in my league, I'd make you a permanent 7. Sandbag all you want as a 7! LOL
<hr /></blockquote>
First off, I've always thought this type of power to the L.O. is exactly why people complain so much about L.O.s. One sore loser who doesn't know anything but his little pond complains and that sets off a skill level change? That's nutz.

Secondly, I don't think anything you said is in conflict with what Jimmy B said. Unless somewhere in your post you said you did in fact kick people out of the league. By making them permanent 7's, that opens the door for the necessity to recruit new players which means more money for the APA. Again, that's exactly what Jimmy B was saying.

Fred

pooltchr
10-09-2003, 06:18 AM
Jimmy,
You missed the point of Scott's remarks. The purpose of sandbagging is to keep your handicap artificially low. If you are a perm sl7, there is no longer any purpose in sandbagging. No matter how much you lose, you are not going any lower. This forces the player to play to his level. That being said, I think a suspension for a session might have a little more impact than just locking up a handicap. Suspending a few players for poor sportsmanship might in the long run help retain the players that have been leaving after getting fed up with all the sandbagging that does go on. Get rid of the bad apples, and the good ones will stay.

9 Ball Girl
10-09-2003, 06:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> First off, I've always thought this type of power to the L.O. is exactly why people complain so much about L.O.s. One sore loser who doesn't know anything but his little pond complains and that sets off a skill level change? That's nutz.<hr /></blockquote>When we asked our LO here how the raising/lowering of handicaps work, he said he had nothing to do with it. It's the computer that does it all or something like that according to whatever is marked on the sheets. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Fred Agnir
10-09-2003, 07:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> First off, I've always thought this type of power to the L.O. is exactly why people complain so much about L.O.s. One sore loser who doesn't know anything but his little pond complains and that sets off a skill level change? That's nutz.<hr /></blockquote>When we asked our LO here how the raising/lowering of handicaps work, he said he had nothing to do with it. It's the computer that does it all or something like that according to whatever is marked on the sheets. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>That's how it's supposed to be. That's how it normally is. But, the APA apparently allows the local league operators to change handicaps at their discretion.

This local policing has good intentions, but usually the people who complain about sandbaggers really have no idea what they're talking about. How does an SL-5 truly know what an SL-7 is capable of doing? Hell, there are "veteran league players" in any local level and even on this board that really didn't (or don't) have a good handle on what advanced play really is about, but I'm sure they or their compadres have complained mightly in the past that some "sandbagger" in their league should be moved up to an SL-7. How can that be? How can they say "so and so should be a 7" when until this year, they never saw a real 7 at work?

As I've said before, league amateurs sometimes play better than they usually do. Sometimes they play worse. That's what being an amateur is all about. Catch them on their bad day, and they get accused of sandbagging. Catch them on their good day, and they get accused of previously sandbagging. It's ridiculous.

Worse yet is that a league operator would even consider raising anyone's handicap because of complaints. That's pretty much saying the system simply doesn't work.

Fred

Wally_in_Cincy
10-09-2003, 07:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>

......Worse yet is that a league operator would even consider raising anyone's handicap because of complaints.

<font color="blue">If several experienced players complained I think the LO should consider that option. But the LO should make the effort to go and observe the player or send someone to watch the player. Unfortunately I doubt many LO's have that much motivation. </font color>

That's pretty much saying the system simply doesn't work.

<font color="blue">If somebody's an expert sandbagger it doesn't work /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif. I am well aware of your opinion on this sandbagging issue and I agree with you about 90%. But I swear there are about 4 or 5 players in our league who miss shots at strangely opportune times /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif. </font color>

Fred

<hr /></blockquote>

Or I could be wrong LOL

As of last year our LO, according to him, is tied in to the national office. He can still move handicaps if necessary, but he must justify it to Lake St. Louis, and consequently it happens much less frequently now.

Jimmy B
10-09-2003, 12:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Jimmy,
You missed the point of Scott's remarks. The purpose of sandbagging is to keep your handicap artificially low. <hr /></blockquote>
Do you really believe I missed his point? Did you miss my point? Because you seem to agree with him yet you then go on to say get rid of a few bad apples and the good will stay? My point is to STOP cheaters you need to really penalize them, not raise them up to 7's and keep them in the league so they can still pay. The major problem is people have no idea where the handicaps should be, if you only have limited knowledge of pool or players you may think someone is a top level player when in fact in higher level competition they would be no more then a 4 or 5. It really comes down to the surrounding players, just being the best in a small pond doesn't make you even good in the ocean. The key is that the LO has too much power and what he wants is for people to bitch about the handicaps, this way he has his excuse why he's moving people up. By other teams complaining it's the perfect reason to expand his league by moving people up, he can just pass the buck and say I had to many complaints. Then what happens is many teams are happy that the enemy got moved up until their guy starts beating him because he's over ratted and the first team complains about your guy. Like I said the LO loves this and it all culminates when a team goes to Vegas and they get killed and their favorite story is that out there they have 4's who shoot like sevens (I've heard it a million times) when in fact those 4's shoot like 4's but their LO went by the system and yours moved players every time someone opened their mouth. If someone cheats they need to be tossed out, the more this happens the less people will cheat, trust me. JB

Kato
10-09-2003, 12:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimmy B:</font><hr> Like I said the LO loves this and it all culminates when a team goes to Vegas and they get killed and their favorite story is that out there they have 4's who shoot like sevens (I've heard it a million times) when in fact those 4's shoot like 4's<hr /></blockquote>

I've always said the 4's in Orlando or Chicago or New York would be better than the 4's in Ft. Lauderdale. More talent to pull from. I should move, I loved being a SL5. Makes the game fun again.

Kato

bluewolf
10-09-2003, 01:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> So here's my question:

Do you leave your team to make room for a lower SL or do you stop playing in the league and move on to playing in Open tourneys and what have you? <hr /></blockquote>

Like are you satisfied being a big fish in a little pond or do you want to stretch your wings and be a little fish in a big pond? I know three 7s in the apa league I was in who are in this position

Laura

9 Ball Girl
10-09-2003, 02:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> So here's my question:

Do you leave your team to make room for a lower SL or do you stop playing in the league and move on to playing in Open tourneys and what have you? <hr /></blockquote>

Like are you satisfied being a big fish in a little pond or do you want to stretch your wings and be a little fish in a big pond? I know three 7s in the apa league I was in who are in this position<hr /></blockquote>Which position would that be? The little fish or the big fish? If it were up to me, I'd rather be the little fish knowing that I have goals to reach. I mean, you're little before becoming big, right? Gotta start out somewhere. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

CrispyFish
10-09-2003, 03:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr> Which position would that be? The little fish or the big fish? If it were up to me, I'd rather be the little fish knowing that I have goals to reach. I mean, you're little before becoming big, right? Gotta start out somewhere. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif<hr /></blockquote>
Yup, same here. If it's not challenging, it's not worth it, IMO.

-CF &lt;--- very challenged. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

rackmup
10-09-2003, 07:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9 Ball Girl:</font><hr>I mean, you're little before becoming big, right? Gotta start out somewhere.<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, that is true. I know. I was little before I got big and that didn't happen until a little tamale shop opened up across the street.

After eating about a dozen homemade pork tamales everyday, I have become big. Very big.

Regards,

Ken (if tamale eating had a ranking, I'd be a "7")

just_shootme
10-09-2003, 10:03 PM
My only quam with the APA is set standards.
I have never been to vegas, but I have been to the challenge and citywide here in Chicago several times.
I am only a low end 5 (recently)
I think that every area does not keep set standard in Handi-cap If I'm in a match with any 3 outside of our area I am really playing someone at High 4 status

Sandbagging is frownded upon but rarely dealt with unless your in a event setting. If I am playing a 3 that can safety without help from a coach, or has a very strong stroke or can walk a ball continously up from the 1st diamod, then I am not playing a 3 am I? and my team is being cheated out of a fair chance to win.

just felt the need to add my 2 cents.

Scott Lee
10-09-2003, 10:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> [First off, I've always thought this type of power to the L.O. is exactly why people complain so much about L.O.s. One sore loser who doesn't know anything but his little pond complains and that sets off a skill level change? That's nutz.

Secondly, I don't think anything you said is in conflict with what Jimmy B said. Unless somewhere in your post you said you did in fact kick people out of the league. By making them permanent 7's, that opens the door for the necessity to recruit new players which means more money for the APA. Again, that's exactly what Jimmy B was saying.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Fred...I was very fortunate. I had the respect of my players, and treated them the same. I never had to artificially raise anyone's handicap. The threat was enough. In 4 years, I had to kick only 1 team out of the league...and that was for sportsmanship violations, not related to sandbagging. I had way less than a hundred teams (60), and knew every player...but that's not practical for big league operators, who might have a few hundred teams.
So, although I had the 'power' and the leeway from corporate APA to do that...I never felt like I needed to.
My league players actually had fun!

Scott

Rich R.
10-10-2003, 04:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Kato:</font><hr> I've always said the 4's in Orlando or Chicago or New York would be better than the 4's in Ft. Lauderdale. More talent to pull from. I should move, I loved being a SL5. Makes the game fun again. <hr /></blockquote>
Trust me, you are no SL5. I don't care where you play.

Fred Agnir
10-10-2003, 06:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote just_shootme:</font><hr> My only quam with the APA is set standards.
I have never been to vegas, but I have been to the challenge and citywide here in Chicago several times.
I am only a low end 5 (recently)
I think that every area does not keep set standard in Handi-cap If I'm in a match with any 3 outside of our area I am really playing someone at High 4 status
<hr /></blockquote> I think you mean to say that they would be a high 4 status if they played in your area, right?

If every 3-rated player you play outside of your area is what you consider a high 4, then which area do you think has the handicap right. Yours or all the ones outside your area?

Fred &lt;~~~ picks door number 2

jjinfla
10-10-2003, 07:45 AM
Our APA league match last night was a fiasco. Sitting back and listening to all the players they think EVERYONE is a sandbagger.

Our guy, a 4, the owner of the bar, kept complaining about the guy he was playing. "Who is this guy? He's better than a four!" Finally, as the match was almost over I told our guy that the other guy wouldn't be able to make all those balls if you didn't allow him to get to the table. If you didn't scratch a dozen times and miss all those easy two foot shots you wouldn't be behind.

Then our 2 had ball in hand with the 7 ball 8" from the side pocket, straight in. A simple stop shot puts her straight in on the 8 in the corner. What does she do? Puts the CB between the pocket and the 7 ball to shoot it across the table. I decided not to call timeout and let her shoot. Of course she slams the ball and misses. I then asked her why she didn't just shoot the short shot? And she says, "I told Missi (Another player)I couldn't see for the past week". Why she didn't tell me when I asked her if she wanted to play is beyond me.

And she was playing a 6 who shoots real nice. Good stroke, good CB control, good head on his shoulders. And no doubt will be moved up to a 7 shortly. But in his next to last rack he missed two easy 9 ball shots. I walked over to one of their players on his team and said just so you know, your guy intentionally missed those shots just to get a couple innings. But I won't mark them as defensive. The guy heard me and didn't miss anymore and won the game.

And our 4 was playing a 3 and lost. Then he said, "she is only a 3? When was she dropped to a 3? She's better then a 3. If I would have known that I wouldn't have missed those 4 easy shots I had". Duh. Like it's my fault he doesn't know the race.

Anyway, this happens all the time in the APA. The longer you play the more you see it. The players are just bad and use the term "sandbagging" as a defensive mechanism. They don't want to admit that they suck at pool and have to blame someone else when they lose.

But I guess that is the way our society is going nowadays, nobody takes responsibility for their own actions. It is never their fault. They always have to blame somebody else.

But the beer sure did taste good last night.

I just don't know if I can last until the Spring session.

How someone can stay in it year after year is beyond me.

Jake---anyway I received my break and run patch for my play during the money cup. Not bad for a 4, er now a 5.