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Perk
10-09-2003, 07:18 AM
In the "APA Management Post", it was mentioned that most players are unsure of what a SL7 is supposed to look like/play like. My question to the APA shooters is:

Can you give me an idea of what a SL5, SL6, SL7 is supposed to play like?

I realize its opinionated, but I am curious. All my playing comes from Open events, and some handicaped. I have been told I would be a 7, but I would like some input on what the 5,6,7's are like...TIA

Kato
10-09-2003, 07:30 AM
Perk, I'm a SL7 in 8-ball and 9-ball. I'd consider myself a very, very low end 7. I say this because hanging out with really good league players like Jimmy B and Fred Agnir a few weeks ago I realize that I'm a long way from where I'd like to be. They are WWWWAAAAYYYYY better than me yet have the same ranking. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Kato~~~I wanna be a SL6, when life was so much easier /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Perk
10-09-2003, 08:03 AM
Kato,

As a "low" by your standards 7, how often are you running out, and trips to the table? Is your league on 9' or BB's? I am just curious. Any info is appreciated.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-09-2003, 09:50 AM
I figured Fred would weigh in on this. Until he does these are my approximations (for APA 8-ball)

APA skill level

2 = D- player

3 = D

4 = D+ to C-

5 = C

6 = C+ to B-

7 = B to B+ and above

I think APA 9-ball rankings are a bit higher and these will vary from region to region....I think /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Fred Agnir
10-09-2003, 09:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Kato:</font><hr> Perk, I'm a SL7 in 8-ball and 9-ball. I'd consider myself a very, very low end 7. I say this because hanging out with really good league players like Jimmy B and Fred Agnir a few weeks ago I realize that I'm a long way from where I'd like to be. They are WWWWAAAAYYYYY better than me yet have the same ranking. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif<hr /></blockquote>
And consider two or three of the guys that play APA (maybe they've quit by now) in my area are in the Steve Lipsky range and I'm supposed to be the same ranking as they are???

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks there are 4 or 5 levels above SL-7 (and that's just the amateurs)

Fred Agnir
10-09-2003, 09:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> I figured Fred would weigh in on this. Until he does these are my approximations (for APA 8-ball)

APA skill level

2 = D- player

3 = D

4 = D+ to C-

5 = C

6 = C+ to B-

7 = B to B+ and above

I think APA 9-ball rankings are a bit higher and these will vary from region to region....I think /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif


<hr /></blockquote>I'd say this is about right, if the ABCD ranking system from Bob Campbell is used. In some areas I've been to, a weak 6 (in 8-ball) could be a D player. YMMV.

Fred

Perk
10-09-2003, 10:19 AM
That seems to be close to what I have heard. I wonder why it isnt adjusted to make it more competitive at the 5/6 level, and less 7's. From what I have heard from the numerous discussions in the past, a 3/4 gets bumped up really easy. Couldnt the system be designed where you had to earn your weight to move up rank? Seems like they would make it where "A" level players were at the 7 level.

I realize that most "A" level players are not utilizing these leagues, and playin open tourneys anyways.

DoomCue
10-09-2003, 10:51 AM
Ahh, therein lies the rub for handicap leagues. There has to be some mechanism in place in order to generate new membership. For the APA, it's built into the handicap system. It's ridiculously easy to increase your handicap rating, thereby forcing teams to recruit new blood to meet the 23 Rule. There are many more bangers than people who can play, which is exactly what the APA is looking for. If they adjusted the system so there were more levels and a higher cap on the handicaps you can play in a night, there would be less reason to recruit that "new blood." That's how the APA continues to generate higher revenue.

-djb

Fred Agnir
10-09-2003, 10:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DoomCue:</font><hr> Ahh, therein lies the rub for handicap leagues. There has to be some mechanism in place in order to generate new membership. For the APA, it's built into the handicap system. It's ridiculously easy to increase your handicap rating, thereby forcing teams to recruit new blood to meet the 23 Rule. There are many more bangers than people who can play, which is exactly what the APA is looking for. If they adjusted the system so there were more levels and a higher cap on the handicaps you can play in a night, there would be less reason to recruit that "new blood." That's how the APA continues to generate higher revenue.

-djb
<hr /></blockquote>And so, we have gone full circle.

Fred &lt;~~~ until next time this gets brought up

Wally_in_Cincy
10-09-2003, 11:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>

In some areas I've been to, a weak 6 (in 8-ball) could be a D player. YMMV.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Surely you jest /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

BTW what does YMMV mean? I lost my link to internet acronyms.

Fred Agnir
10-09-2003, 11:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>

In some areas I've been to, a weak 6 (in 8-ball) could be a D player. YMMV.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Surely you jest /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif<hr /></blockquote>
Unfortunately, I'm not kidding. That's the whole "regional differences" idea. Handicaps will go up in a weaker region. To put it to the extreme, if an area only had A-level players, and they all played the APA, by the handicapping system, nobody would become an SL-7. If a guy who is a B or C level player walked in, he'd lose every match and end up as an SL-2.

For the reverse extreme, if an area had all players that couldn't hold the stick, and one guy who might be, say, a C-level player walked in, he'd become an SL-6 or better rather quickly.

That's one reason why people who go to higher level tournaments most likely say things like "their 4 played like a 6." The strength of the region/division is crucial.


[ QUOTE ]
BTW what does YMMV mean? I lost my link to internet acronyms. <hr /></blockquote>Your mileage may vary.

Fred

Kato
10-09-2003, 11:26 AM
I don't play APA anymore but always played on 9'. How many innings am I at the table? As many as it takes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I ended up a 7 based on winning percentage, certainly not by innings I don't think. I also never played any games as a 7 in APA 9-ball as I was raised in the playoffs and we forfieted. I also never played a game as a 7 in 8-ball because when I got raised I was no longer usuable.

Kato

Doctor_D
10-09-2003, 11:45 AM
Good afternoon:

When I previously played APA, and it appears to be very much the same with many of the players in my TAP league, many of those with SL5 or SL6 rankings on Bar Boxes can not compete at that level on 9' tables. I have watched players look awesome on Bar Boxes and then look like beginners on 9' tables.

Dr. D.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-09-2003, 12:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>
....if an area had all players that couldn't hold the stick, and one guy who might be, say, a C-level player walked in, he'd become an SL-6 or better rather quickly....<hr /></blockquote>

So, at the tavern on Friday night, I would be a 7 /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Thanks, that explains it. I was thinking more along the lines of innings, and not considering winning percentages.

CrispyFish
10-09-2003, 12:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Doctor_D:</font><hr> Good afternoon:

When I previously played APA, and it appears to be very much the same with many of the players in my TAP league, many of those with SL5 or SL6 rankings on Bar Boxes can not compete at that level on 9' tables. I have watched players look awesome on Bar Boxes and then look like beginners on 9' tables.

Dr. D.
<hr /></blockquote>
This actually raises a good point: not all APA leagues play on bar boxes, another factor contributing to inconsistent skill-level matchups in regional and national competitions.

-CF

Fred Agnir
10-09-2003, 12:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>
So, at the tavern on Friday night, I would be a 7 /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

Thanks, that explains it. I was thinking more along the lines of innings, and not considering winning percentages. <hr /></blockquote> The innings go hand-in-hand with the strength of competition. If you lose less games, your innings stay lower, since all of the innings (wins and losses) are counted in the handicap.

A friend of mine who plays in a relatively weak area is now an SL-6 in 8-ball. His games typically go like this:

Him: makes 3 or 4 balls. Misses and leaves a wide open table
Opponent: can't make 4 friggin balls.

1 inning.

Him: Makes the rest of his balls. Blows the 8-ball
Opponent: Makes the rest of his balls. Hangs the 8-ball.

2 innings.

Him: Makes the hanging 8-ball

2 inning game.

Now we all have matches like this, but if you get more on average in one area, your innings will falsely stay low, and your handicap will go up. In a stronger area, he'd have to play more games in order to win (since he'd have lost this game for sure). And the more games you play, the more innings you have to play.

Fred

Perk
10-09-2003, 01:11 PM
What tables are the nationals/regionals played on?

Wally_in_Cincy
10-09-2003, 01:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Perk:</font><hr> What tables are the nationals/regionals played on? <hr /></blockquote>

Nationals are played on 7' Diamond smart tables. The pocket are cut to the APA's specs. They are buckets IMO. Simonis 860 and aramith balls.

I watched the ladies' nationals this year. The tables are so small and fast most of these girls were shooting so soft they were basically pushing the balls around for fear of scratching.

CrispyFish
10-09-2003, 01:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Perk:</font><hr> What tables are the nationals/regionals played on? <hr /></blockquote>
Bar tables.

jjinfla
10-09-2003, 01:38 PM
What is an APA 7 supposed to look like?

To put it simply - an APA 7 is just someone who should consistently beat all the lower handicapped players in his league. Nothing else.

An APA 6 should consistently beat all the lower handicapped players in his league.

AN APA 5 - well you get the point.

The key word is consistently, and over the long run, and all that statistic jazz. If a person has only 20 games in the computer then his level can fluctuate all over the place while a person with 200 games logged will very seldom change.

On any give day a 5 can play like a 7 and a 7 can play like a 5 but one match out of a hundred is really meaningless.

I would imagine that the APA computer program takes into account all sorts of variables. Size of table; innings; competition; won or loss; 8 or 9 on the break; break and run; etc. and plugs them into their formula. If a 4 is consistently winning but the inings are high and he is only playing other 4's and 3's then in all likelyhood he will remain a 4. However if this same 4 is consistently playing 4's and 5' and is winning, and his innings are low then he most likely will be moved up.

But, comparing a SL7 in APA to everyone else who plays pool is meaningless. it is only meaningfull to the league that he plays in. Just like a person who plays in Bar A all his life and can beat anyone there tells you nothing about how well or poorly he will do if he goes to play at Bar B. The only way he will know that is to go and play at Bar B.

Top level players in the world of pool would all be 7's - but the APA is not designed for them.

Jake

Fred Agnir
10-09-2003, 02:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CrispyFish:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Perk:</font><hr> What tables are the nationals/regionals played on? <hr /></blockquote>
Bar tables. <hr /></blockquote>

7' bar tables is probably the best answer other than 7' Diamond Smart Tables for the APA.

The term "bar tables" is loose at best. It doesn't describe the size of the table. It also doesn't describe the cueball, the table conditions, or the music being played.

Fred

RedHell
10-09-2003, 02:05 PM
Talking about bar table cue ball. I had the chance to play on a Valley with the new Aramith Bar ball. It's a great cue ball compare to the regular mudball. I remember someone talking about a problem with the ball getting marked quickly, and I have to admit that the ball I played with was terribly marked for a 2 months old ball....

CrispyFish
10-09-2003, 02:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>7' bar tables is probably the best answer other than 7' Diamond Smart Tables for the APA.

The term "bar tables" is loose at best. It doesn't describe the size of the table. It also doesn't describe the cueball, the table conditions, or the music being played.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>
Fair enough. When I think "bar tables", in my mind I'm thinking 7-footers. I don't think all the regionals are played on Diamonds, though I could be wrong.

-CF

Fred Agnir
10-09-2003, 03:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CrispyFish:</font><hr>
Fair enough. When I think "bar tables", in my mind I'm thinking 7-footers. I don't think all the regionals are played on Diamonds, though I could be wrong.

-CF <hr /></blockquote>Nope. You're right. I should have specified National APA Tournament.

Incidentally, I've played in a couple of regionals that used a pool hall with 9' Gold Crowns.

And, as I've said in the past, for some odd reason, most of the bars in my area have 8' bar tables instead of 7' bar tables. Both old Dynamo and old Valley tables. The local amusement guy must have gotten some kind of surplus deal.

Fred

rackmup
10-09-2003, 07:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Can you give me an idea of what a SL5, SL6, SL7...<hr /></blockquote>

An S/L-5 runs three balls, miscues and blames it on the chalk or tip.

An S/L-6 runs five balls and jaws the next and blames it on "table roll."

An S/L-7 runs out on you from the snap and doesn't blame the chalk, never gripes about his tip or the table and rarely rattles a pocket and he/she blames your loss on being an s/l-3.

At least that's how it plays out here in Texas.

Regards,

Ken

Fred Agnir
10-10-2003, 06:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote rackmup:</font><hr>
An S/L-5 runs three balls, miscues and blames it on the chalk or tip.

An S/L-6 runs five balls and jaws the next and blames it on "table roll."

An S/L-7 runs out on you from the snap and doesn't blame the chalk, never gripes about his tip or the table and rarely rattles a pocket and he/she blames your loss on being an s/l-3.

At least that's how it plays out here in Texas.

<hr /></blockquote>Hmmm. Based on this, our SL-7's play just like SL-6's. Friggin' sandbaggers.

Fred &lt;~~~ the worst sanbagger I guess

OnePocketChamp
10-10-2003, 09:21 AM
[ QUOTE ]
most players are unsure of what a SL7 is supposed to look like/play like. <hr /></blockquote>
I won't be able to help with how a s/l 7 plays but here is how to identify a 7 by his or her look:
1. always wears dark sunglasses.
2. utilizes the mandatory black shooting glove.
3. chalks cue before every shot and this always results in a high decibel level squicking noise.
4. will always be wearing a Hawaiian style shirt.
5. will always mark his called 8 ball pocket with a switchblade.
6. in every match will usually refer to a one pocket shot in some sort of a Zen like trance.
I hope this helps.