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Wally_in_Cincy
10-17-2003, 12:20 PM
Often while playing 14.1 my opponent will shoot a combo out of the pack that is frozen dead or a frozen one that can be thrown into the hole. More often than not this opponent will be one of the wise and wily veterans of the game. In a 100 point game this will happen an average of 2 or 3 times. It is often devastating for me because the pack usually opens real nice.

Now, while watching the pros on video I notice this may happen only once, or not at all, in a 150 point game. I suppose it is because their break shots are almost always successful and this particular shot is not required.

What say ye, wily CCBers, how often do you see this? Oh and also, why can't I see them? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Never mind I already know the answer to the second question /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Cueless Joey
10-17-2003, 01:02 PM
I don't know about in straight-pool but in 9-ball it comes up often and more often that not, the shooter shoots it the wrong way.
Even if the two balls have a slight gap, the second ball can still be thrown.
I am just appaled why most people don't know the throw shot/combo.

Gerry
10-17-2003, 01:13 PM
Wally,
The easiest way I line up frozen combos is, picture a line disecting the 2 balls, then another line at a right angle from the first line starting where the 2 balls are touching going toward the target pocket. With a medium hit and no spin the ball you hit will follow this path (the second line). The way I got real good at kiss shots, kicks, banks, combos, etc was playing a game to 25 points and the only rule is you can't shoot a ball straight in the pocket. You must kick/bank/billiard/kiss/combo the balls in. Just like straight pool you make one, keep shooting. Start the game like straight pool and go from there. This also helped my 1-pocket game tremendously.....Gerry

Wally_in_Cincy
10-17-2003, 01:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> .....I am just apalled why most people don't know the throw shot/combo. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know Joey, I kinda like it that way /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Funny thing is, I've tried to show some of my teammates that, and they act like it's too much mental exercise to think about. Go figure.

Cueless Joey
10-17-2003, 01:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> .....I am just apalled why most people don't know the throw shot/combo. <hr /></blockquote>

I don't know Joey, I kinda like it that way /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Funny thing is, I've tried to show some of my teammates that, and they act like it's too much mental exercise to think about. Go figure. <hr /></blockquote>
Try telling them think of the two balls as one ball. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
And the still get it wrong.
This one I'm not even going to explain anymore.

9 Ball Road Pro
10-17-2003, 01:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> Often while playing 14.1 my opponent will shoot a combo out of the pack that is frozen dead or a frozen one that can be thrown into the hole. More often than not this opponent will be one of the wise and wily veterans of the game. In a 100 point game this will happen an average of 2 or 3 times. It is often devastating for me because the pack usually opens real nice.

Now, while watching the pros on video I notice this may happen only once, or not at all, in a 150 point game. I suppose it is because their break shots are almost always successful and this particular shot is not required.

What say ye, wily CCBers, how often do you see this? Oh and also, why can't I see them? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Never mind I already know the answer to the second question /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

There are good diagrams on how to handle these in the old little red book from Mosconi and in the Ray Martin 99 shots book. /ccboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Tom_In_Cincy
10-17-2003, 05:20 PM
WIC,

I thought we covered this carom sighting in our weekly 14.1 games? Maybe I am mistaken, but anyway, I say it comes up more often, but not seen, even by experienced players.

Anytime the rack is nuged apart, these caroms/combos can appear. You just have to be able to see them. Knowing what to look for helps alot.

The two balls frozen in the rack, the one that looks like it will go the easist is not always the one that is DEAD.

If the tangent like between the two balls is intersecting the pocket, the ball that has the least amount of room to enter the pocket, can be the ball that is more easily made.

There can be separation between the balls too, they don't have to be frozen. But it helps, the closer they are to being frozen.

Steve Lipsky
10-17-2003, 06:01 PM
Hi Wally. I have learned to be pretty conservative about playing these shots. They are often tantalizing, to be sure, but their dangers are just as obvious.

My make-percentage on these shots is very high, but that is not a very telling statistic. It's based purely on the fact that I only play them if I am almost positive they will go. I am sure I have elected to not play a bazillion of them that were absolutely dead /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

One possible reason for your observations that it happens more frequently in lower-level matches: maybe more racks end in these games without a typical break shot, leading to safety battles on the incoming closed rack? I dunno.

Also, you mention that it is devastating when your opponent hits you with one of these shots. But are you also remembering all the times your opponent sells out to you by missing one of these shots?

Anyway, I'm not suggesting you don't look for these shots. You should always inspect the racks once they've been nudged (This is a huge flaw in my own game; I often play safe without checking, and get clobbered when my opponent has a dead one that I overlooked. I've been struggling with this for years.). I'm just suggesting to play them only when they "feel" right.

- Steve

Steve Lipsky
10-17-2003, 06:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr>If the tangent line between the two balls is intersecting the pocket, the ball that has the least amount of room to enter the pocket, can be the ball that is more easily made.
<hr /></blockquote>

Hi Tom... could you elaborate? I have trouble with these shots and would love to have a better understanding.

Thanks,
Steve

Tom_In_Cincy
10-17-2003, 06:58 PM
Steve,

Elaboration? well, I'll try..

WEI Table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

START(
%BN4O8%CH2L7%DM2M0%EM5N5%FL0P0%GL2N7%HL9Q8%IJ8M3%J I4N5%KJ5P7
%LJ7O3%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OK9L6%Pn0E7%QF0C6%RC3E4%SQ7U5%T N0L2%YC3B3
%ZQ6U3%[N8L7%\m3F3
)END

In this example, the 15 ball and the 9 ball are frozen. But, the 15 ball looks to be on a tangent line to the right side of the corner pocket 'A' and the 9 ball looks to be straight in 'B'(and if you straight in on the 9 ball, you know it would go) But your not straight in on the 9, you only have a shot on the 4 ball, which will hit the 15 forcing it towards the end rail, and then the 15 will carom off the 9 ball.

The 15 will have more room necessary to pass the right side of the corner pocket because of the forward motion (toward the end rail) impact of the 4 ball.

Set it up, with the tangent line point to the right side of the pocket for the 14 ball. Hit the 14 ball like the WEI drawing at medium, soft and break speed.

Note:
If the corner pocket has ball trails, 'gutter paths' on either side, the tangent line that crosses one of these gutter paths, is the 'limit' I have seen for this to be possible. Any closer to the edge of the corner pocket and it is questionable wether it will go or not.

Popcorn
10-17-2003, 07:35 PM
There is a lot to be learned from your post and I am not talking about playing dead shots. The humility in this post is truly refreshing.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-18-2003, 08:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> WIC,

I thought we covered this carom sighting in our weekly 14.1 games? Maybe I am mistaken, but anyway, I say it comes up more often, but not seen, even by experienced players.

Anytime the rack is nuged apart, these caroms/combos can appear. You just have to be able to see them. Knowing what to look for helps alot.

<font color="blue">Yes we have discussed this several times. Knowing what to look for requires experience and practice. Having the discipline to look for them requires more diligence on my part /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif</font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Wally_in_Cincy
10-18-2003, 08:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> .....One possible reason for your observations that it happens more frequently in lower-level matches: maybe more racks end in these games without a typical break shot, leading to safety battles on the incoming closed rack?

<font color="blue">Yes. I believe you are correct. I alluded to that in my original post.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> .... while watching the pros on video I notice this may happen only once, or not at all, in a 150 point game. I suppose it is because their break shots are almost always successful and this particular shot is not required. <hr /></blockquote>

I played a young feller Wednesday and it was only his second match. I was carefully leaving the probable break balls untouched. But every time I would miss he would shoot them in, not knowing the game that well. Many racks thusly were started with safety battles. Good safety practice though /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif</font color>

Also, you mention that it is devastating when your opponent hits you with one of these shots. But are you also remembering all the times your opponent sells out to you by missing one of these shots?

<font color="blue">That does not happen often enough to suit me. They always seem to make the shot /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif</font color>

Anyway, I'm not suggesting you don't look for these shots. You should always inspect the racks once they've been nudged (This is a huge flaw in my own game; I often play safe without checking, and get clobbered when my opponent has a dead one that I overlooked. I've been struggling with this for years.)....

<font color="blue">In my last few matches I have been lax in this also. I need to get back to checking the stack better. I have been playing less 14.1 since my sparring partner moved to SacTown /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif</font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Thanks to all for your input</font color>

Wally_in_Cincy
10-18-2003, 08:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> There is a lot to be learned from your post and I am not talking about playing dead shots. The humility in this post is truly refreshing. <hr /></blockquote>

Ditto that.

Steve's a good man.

Steve Lipsky
10-18-2003, 07:58 PM
Thanks guys. And Tom, thanks for the elaborate explanation. I am going to practice it the next time I'm in the poolroom.

- Steve