View Full Version : Diamond Pro or Brunswick?

10-19-2003, 07:47 AM
Hi, I am going to be buying a table in the near future and I've read through as much stuff as I could find but I live a little out in the sticks so going to view/play on the tables I want has so far been unavailable.
I am trying to get a competition style table for my home. I want the best possible playing table I can afford so I have been looking at the Diamond Pro or a brunswick centurion, something like that both are in the $4000-$4500 range. Does anyone have playing experience on these tables or others that are as good? (Gold Crown IV is out of my price range /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif )
Thanks in advance for any info you have ... and its my first post so I hope this goes through ok but I love this forum /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

10-19-2003, 08:04 AM
I would say Diamond Pro, Where doyou live? I know a gentleman who has some gold crown 4's used 1 week at an event.

email me


10-19-2003, 12:51 PM
I'm looking for a new/used Crown. I'm in Pa, near Reading. Let me know about pricing and location.....thanx...Gerry

10-19-2003, 02:18 PM
The guy I know wants 5,000.00 for the Gold Crown 4 Table and Light includes Centennial Balls and Simonis 860 all used one week at Innaugural Masters. The tables are in Norfolk, Virginia. I believe he has 6 left

The table retails for 7G
Light for 12-1500.
balls 200
cloth 200

Not too bad of a deal. I do have a One Dollar finders fee..lol



Scott Lee
10-19-2003, 02:37 PM
Another excellent table is the Gabriels, which can also be had (like the GCIV's Brady knows about...with one week's use at a pro tournament) in the $4500-$5000 price range.
You'll have to pay shipping, and to have it set up...but you'd have to do that anyway. The Gabriels tables are on a par with the Diamond Pro and the Brunswick GCIV...all top-of-the-line professional style tables.

Scott Lee

10-19-2003, 05:27 PM
Thanks for the posts. Does anyone own one of the gabriel signature pros, I've read a lot about the diamond pro and GC4's but not too much about the gabriel? it sounds like a great table ... steel beam construction, 1 1/4 inch slate. I would like to know how it plays if anyone can compare one recently?

P.S. - I Think I have my wife convinced /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

10-19-2003, 05:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Godzilla:</font><hr>

P.S. - I Think I have my wife convinced /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Well there you go, your 1/2 way there. I'd say you passed the biggest barrier. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

~~Rod, likes the Diamond Pro's

10-19-2003, 05:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Godzilla:</font><hr> Thanks for the posts. Does anyone own one of the gabriel signature pros, I've read a lot about the diamond pro and GC4's but not too much about the gabriel? it sounds like a great table ... steel beam construction, 1 1/4 inch slate. I would like to know how it plays if anyone can compare one recently?

P.S. - I Think I have my wife convinced /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>


I have played on all three mentioned tables in the last month. While I am partial to the Diamond my opinion maybe colored by the fact that I arranged the purchase of one for a friend and I play on it often. I recently played on the Gabrial and it was a very impressive table, it played tight ( 4 1/2 corners just like the Diamond ) but fair. The GCIV plays very forgiving compared to the Gabrial and Diamond. If I was putting up my own money I would look very closely at the Gabrial table.

10-20-2003, 06:21 AM
Thanks brady, I am interested in talking to your friend as soon as possible. I got the green light this morning to go ahead so now the decision is diamond pro, gabriel signature pro, or gold crown 4 (begins pulling out hair). btw, anyone know how difficult it is to ship to Canada from the US?

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

10-20-2003, 08:33 AM
I have not played on the Gabriel but I am sure it is fine if Scott Lee suggests it. I can definitely speak highly of the Diamond. Very happy with their performance.
I personally shoot on my Olhausen, Monterrey. A furniture table but shoots like a dream. I am extremely happy with it as well.

My last choice of your pickings would be the GC for its cost and more forgiving pockets.

Just my opinion.


Cueless Joey
10-20-2003, 10:27 AM
Like Scott, I was very impressed by Gabriels in Vegas.
Freakin' I beam steel frame. Absolutely immovable.
Joe Marra was selling them after the tourney for $4500.
Dymondwood rails and German cushions.
Those are huge features imo.
Brunswick's rubber is kaka if you ask me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
They should have stuck to getting them made in Chicago.
Not overseas.

10-20-2003, 10:31 AM
If circumstances hadn't worked like they did and I didn't acquire the GCI I have, I would've gotten a Diamond Pro Cut table. IMO, they are the hardest tables to adapt to, they will make you temper your stroke if you shoot on the hard side.

When you get used to that table, you'll conquer any other table out there.


10-20-2003, 12:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> When you get used to that table, you'll conquer any other table out there.<hr /></blockquote>That's what I'm hoping for!
But I can tell you, it takes more than the months and months that I've had mine to get used to... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif
It has definitely done that "tempering your stroke" thing, though. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

10-20-2003, 12:42 PM
Here's a link that may interest you:


10-20-2003, 05:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> When you get used to that table, you'll conquer any other table out there.<hr /></blockquote>That's what I'm hoping for!
But I can tell you, it takes more than the months and months that I've had mine to get used to... /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif
It has definitely done that "tempering your stroke" thing, though. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Uh huh, uh huh...

I'm calling you a name right now....

Starts with a "B" and rhymes with witch...

Barbara~~~SPetty has THE setup... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in MD
10-20-2003, 09:48 PM
Hi there,
I highly recommend the Diamond Pro, with the pro cut pockets, 4 9/16, especially if your intention is to fine tune your aim and speed. I own the Diamond pro, and I can tell you that they are great people to deal with, and they stand behind their product. Also, it is the only table that I am aware of which is completely manufactured in one location. They are not a big production company, and oversee every detail of their product. I am thrilled with my table. There are many other reasons why I think the Diamond Pro is by far the best investment. I would be happy to go into further detail if you would like me to send you a private message.

Good Luck friend, it's a big decision....

10-21-2003, 12:15 PM
SPetty, how old is your Diamond? Specifically do you know if it has the newer cushions Diamond switched to a couple of years ago? If not, you might consider upgrading those. You will get truer banks and also when you recover the cushions you will find the pockets to be a bit more reasonably forgiving, for a while at least.

Also, does anyone know if there is a reasonable way to convert a Diamond regular cut table to a pro cut, other than just adding shims? I have the regular pockets and want to convert it, but my understanding is that shims have their own problems.

10-21-2003, 12:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> SPetty, how old is your Diamond? <hr /></blockquote>Hi Ross,

I got my Diamond in March, if I remember right. And yes, it has the "new" Artemis cushions.

Interestingly enough, I played in a tournament this past weekend, and almost every one of my kicks was wide. Do you think "truer banks" are narrower than less truer banks? That is, if I've practiced kicks on the Diamond and then go elsewhere and kick wide, am I hitting them the same and they're answering differently, or am I just not hitting them the same?

plato 17
10-21-2003, 12:57 PM
There are so many choices in life, do I keep dating the red head and drop the blond, no you keep both of them. I have a towncar, it's nice to drive, but no zip, you buy a 2nd car, a vet.
Plato also solved the table problem, putting in a gc 4 and the diamond, then he has best of both worlds. If a tourney is coming up on the diamonds, he can practice on that table only, same on the gc. House has no room for 2 tables, build on a new room on the back. Where there is a will, there is a way. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

10-21-2003, 05:19 PM
How wide a table banks is a function both of the cushions (height, composition, age) and the speed of the cloth (on the table bed and on the cushions). The harder you bank or kick the less effect cloth speed has, so it is easier to be consistent from table to table if you avoid medium and slower kicks or banks. I assume you have Simonis 860 on your table, so I don't know why your table would tend to bank/kick short. Maybe someone else has a theory.

By truer banking, I meant the older diamond cushions would grab the ball in a weird way. The main way I noticed that is the old luck shot where you are banking for the side pocket, hit short and then the ob goes in the opposite side -- well that occurred much less frequently on the older Diamonds. Say you were banking for the side pocket to your right. The first struck rail would put so much right english on the ball, that when it hit the second rail it would tend to go straight across instead of continuing somewhat to the right toward the opposite side pocket. I only noticed this on Diamonds, and Greg at Diamond confirmed that this was a problem with the older cushions.

I would suggest setting up a few of reference kicks (like corner to corner) and work on them until you know exactly the exact proper bank point for a particular speed and english. Then when you go to a tournament, try these reference banks and see if you go long or short, so you can adjust. Ideally at least one of these reference kicks would be at medium to slow speed and one or more at firm speed. You may find that the tournament table only banks longer at slower speeds but banks just like your diamond when the ball is struck firmly. Just some thoughts - good luck!

10-21-2003, 05:20 PM
I prefer to play on tables with 5" pockets, due to my trick shots, many have balls flying down the rails with great speed. Tight pockets do not take these shots well unless the shot is dead in.

I play on a lot of GC 4's, love the table. I think the rails are a little high and the rubber could be better. I think the points in the pockets are too punative, they don't let you get by with much. Overall, such a table does make you a better player. You must shoot straight and you must bring down your force of your shots to pot in the acceptable pocket speed of the table. If I had to choose between the two tables, I would choose the Gold Crown. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Chris in NC
10-22-2003, 12:08 PM
Ross, the only factory difference between the regular cut Diamond pockets (4-13/16") and the tour cut pockets (4-9/16") is that Diamond uses a 1/8" pocket facing for the regular cut and a thicker 1/4" pocket facing of the same material on the tour cut pockets. If you call Greg at Diamond I'm sure he'll be glad to send you some of the thicker facings. Of course you'll still need a very qualified and experienced mechanic to attach and trim the new facings correctly.

No question though, having the pockets tightened by replacing the thinner facing with a thicker single facing as opposed to two layers of 1/8" facings (same thing as a shim) is far preferred and will play better as a result. - Chris in NC

10-24-2003, 02:35 PM
Chris in NC,
I don't know where you got you're information, but I had to reply and correct this. I'm very against any facing being thicker than 1/8 of an inch. The thicker facings change the reaction of the ball entering the pocket and also changes the surface area in play for banks. The Pro cut and billiard cut pockets are cut different at the plant allowing for 1/8 inch pocket facings to be used. Howevee, if you have to use thicker facings its not the end of the world. Greg/Diamond

10-24-2003, 04:10 PM
So I'm scr***d, huh? To get the true equivalent of a pro-cut Diamond I would need entirely new rails? Is that even possible? Sorry, I wasn't home during most of my table assembly so I don't know exactly what is one piece and what is detachable, if that makes sense.

Chris in NC
10-25-2003, 07:17 AM
Greg, I was present to assist my mechanic when a friend's new Diamond table was set up (about 3 years ago). This customer had requested tight pockets. The rails were not yet covered, so I saw the 1/4" facings installed on the ends of the cushions, as opposed to the 1/8" facings commonly used. From that I made the assumption that the only difference between your tour cut and regular cut offerings was in the thickness of the pocket facings you use - not in the length of the cushion rubber.

I agree with you that pocket facing material plays differently (not nearly as lively) as the cushion rubber, so a 1/4" facing even if installed correctly does not play as well as cushion rubber. So, the proper way to tighten pockets is to do as Ernesto does, either replace with brand new cushion rubber cut off longer, or take off the existing cushion rubber, remove the backing and stretch it out longer when gluing it back on so only a single 1/8 pocket facing is needed. - Chris in NC

10-25-2003, 09:02 AM
No Ross. you're not scr***d. I'm not aware of you're situation at this time. I know tables have been altered back and forth adding facings or cutting pockets. Ernesto a great mechanic in California has done very well tightening Gold Crowns what I consider the proper way by adding both wood and rubber and using only a single facing. However, many pool rooms have chosen to use 2 or three facings to accomplish these changes. Thick facings work, but 1/8 inch is better IMO. I'll check in you're situation and handle it the best way I can. Greg/Diamond

10-26-2003, 06:56 AM
Hey Greg...How hard it is to change an older Diamond Pro's cushions to the new and improved Artemis Rubber Cushions??

10-26-2003, 08:32 AM
I'ts like everything else. I'ts easy if you have the right tools and know how. For the most part I'd rather see it done at the factory and I'd know it was done right. All we need of course is the rails not the skirts. This is IMO very easy to take apart and ship or transport in a truck or minivan to our plant near Louisville Ky. If you're coming to the Derby City Classic it would be a great time to get this done and tour our new plant. Call Chad at the plant 812-945-6665 to make it happen or other alternatives..... Greg/Diamond

10-26-2003, 08:40 AM

10-26-2003, 09:26 PM
Hi Greg, I read a post of yours a while back (feb I believe) in which you said you changed the cut angles on the pockets. One of my concerns with the diamond pro (as I have not been able to play on one) is the number of people mentioning how tough it is to cut a ball down the rail at speed and have it drop in the pocket instead of rattle. Is this really a problem or has it been fixed if it was a problem?
Also if anyone knows how useful are the dymondwood(spelling?) rails as opposed to normal rails. do they actually make a ball play more true on banks and such or are they purely for toughness in a commercial setting and what do they look like? If anyone has web sites with their diamond pro on display please post them I would love to see how they look or if you have a newer Diamond pro please let me know how they play

Thanks, /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gifGodzilla

10-27-2003, 01:03 PM
"cut a ball down the rail at speed" - what speed? If your aim is true, you can hit a ball pretty hard down the rail and it will go in. If you're just a little off, the ball may rattle, as it should. It's tough, but nothing to be scared of. One of the things that the Diamond table helps with, like Barbara pointed out in another post, is "tempering your stroke".

It's my understanding that the "dymondwood(spelling?) rails" are for commercial environments. They're not to help with banking (they're not the cushions, but the "wood" rails outside the cushions), but they don't get dinged up as easily as real wood. They look nice.

Here's a pic of my Diamond Pro. It's cherry stained oak:

10-27-2003, 01:48 PM
Every time I see that pic I turn green with envy.