View Full Version : How Can This Be A Foul?
10-20-2003, 12:54 PM
I played a formidable opponent recently and I had this shot, the cue ball NOT frozen, so I lined up for the shot like shown. My opponent(who I respect) muttered out load "you're going to foul" but I could see nothing to indicate it so I played through. He immediately voiced why it was a foul, and rather than even argue about it, I accepted it(please don't even address why I did, I was dog tired.) I plan on getting him to explain the whys of his seeing an automatic foul even before the stroke, but I wanted opinions here first. Is there something very obvious I've always gotten away with by shooting non-frozen balls off angel such as the one I pictured here???sid
10-20-2003, 12:58 PM
What was his point ? Did he call push ? Double hit ?
In anyway, I don't see any foul there unless you clearly pushed the shot !
10-20-2003, 12:58 PM
No double hit, you got a rail=no foul in my books.
10-20-2003, 01:05 PM
It stunned me as well, he said something about how both balls moved, like I'd shot thru the center. Like I said, I felt sure that this was a shot I'd played thousands of times and never had an accented opinion ahead of time that it was going to foul. I will get the guy to explain it again next time we hook up, in fron of witnesses! sid
10-20-2003, 01:18 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr>He immediately voiced why it was a foul, and I accepted it...<hr /></blockquote>That sure doesn't look like any kind of foul I've ever heard of. What reason did he give on why it was a foul?
10-20-2003, 01:26 PM
He's calling a push foul on you. The diagram doesn't make sense. It could be a push foul if you hit the shot with a level cue hard enough to send the three to the end rail. In that case you would be aiming a more of an angle into the object ball.
On a legal thin hit the three wouldn't go very far and the cue ball would go to the rail.
Here's what I would have tried:
10-20-2003, 01:49 PM
Get a video camera and have someone film it. Then look at it in slow mo. You will probably see that the angle you struck the CB with the cue causes the OB to bounce off the OB and then is struck again by your cue.
Just too fast to see. But you should feel it.
But it does not happen if you thin the OB and the CB and OB go off in different directions.
Can't believe that a man of your knowledge and experience really has been getting away with this shot all these years.
10-20-2003, 03:02 PM
"Can't believe that a man of your knowledge and experience really has been getting away with this shot all these years."
I don't doubt that slo mo would tell lots about generally accepted shots, but in this case even the MI pool school instructors showed the accepted way to avoid that foul. If we start letting the absolute "one man's" view that YOU ARE AUTOMATICALLY GONNA FOUL then why even mention that you strike off center rather than shoot straight through!? Why!
My experience has been that many, and I mean most all of the prominent players I shoot against use this stroke and never get a whisper of a bad call. Just didn't happen with this one, that's all....sid~~~thinks there are a multitude of questionable bad hits under slo-mo, but we ain't trying to over dissect the game
10-20-2003, 03:14 PM
Chris...In all due respect let's get back to a main point in my scenario. This guy saw my line, muttered the "gonna foul" immediately, without even a hint as to what my stroke pattern was going to be. As I said in a previous reply, in all my years of playing and being taught, this was never ever suggested as anything but proper for avoiding the usual head-on dbl hit foul you see so commonly. I wish I'd had a witness, cuz there simply was no way I had ever believed that was an apparent foul, especially before the stroke was even executed...sid~~~wonders if the guy's macho got out of control after the muttered words were said when it turned out to be a perfectly executed stroke
10-20-2003, 04:00 PM
I had almost the same thing happen in college regionals. Happened exactly as I planned it would happen. Hitting bottom right to spin the cueball back and play safe. My TD (watching the shot) called a double hit. Which I argued for a while about, but had to give in.
10-20-2003, 04:41 PM
Yes, it has to do with the speed of the object ball. If the object ball takes off down table after a thin hit (with the cue held level) it's virtually certain to be a double hit or a push foul.
That's too bad too because it was actually one hell of a nice shot!
By the way - GO TROJANS!!!!
10-20-2003, 04:49 PM
Chris...In all due respect let's get back to a main point in my scenario. This guy saw my line, muttered the "gonna foul" immediately, without even a hint as to what my stroke pattern was going to be. Unquote:
You're right - he couldn't have known in advance how you were going to hit it if you set up like the layout showed. You could have made a perfectly legal shot like the safety I layed out.
Judging by the results, my guess is that you played more of an angle into the object ball than the layout showed, catching about 1/4 of a ball, instead of a thin hit, resulting in a double hit or push foul.
10-20-2003, 05:05 PM
Double hits are determined by the action of the balls and the technique the shooter is using. These shots are basically stun shots with the balls close together. Elevating the cue or shooting at an angle does not eliminate the possibility for a foul.
When shooting at an angle, the cue ball should not go forward of the tangent line. If the shot is straight, the cue ball should not penetrate the space occupied by the object ball. There are some exceptions to this depending on the weight of the cue ball, follow or draw, and the stroke used. It is important to see how the shooter is planning to shoot the shot since their technique may prevent a foul.
It is helpful to be viewing the shot perpendicular to the path the object ball will take. From this perspective, it is easy to see the cue ball action and path. Have a friend shoot some stun and stop shots with the balls about a diamond apart to see what the expected reaction should be, and then have them shoot with the balls close. You should see the difference when they foul.
I don't know how he could see a foul up front. In Vegas they will call one of those shots a foul, in your case if hit with left english. Although it can be a foul it is not a guaranteed foul. Could be they just call it because it is likely to happen. Personally I'd be more than pi$$ed if a newby ref did it as an automatic and it really wasn't a foul. Have them tell you why it was a foul and what c/b and or o/b reaction made it so obvious.
I assume you were just cutting across the o/b and the c/b caught the rail? If it was hit more full with left, then it definately could have been a foul. Too late to call now or even know the o/b speed and a difficult internet question.
10-20-2003, 07:11 PM
My opponent(who I respect) muttered out load "you're going to foul" but I could see nothing to indicate it so I played through. He immediately voiced why it was a foul...
Sid, first you start out by saying that he is a formidable opponent, and that you respect him. I take it by respect you are referring to his pool knowledge in this instance. So we have to believe that he is both a very good pool player and knowledgeable about the game.
Then as you are about to shoot he says "you're going to foul". I don't take this as being pompous but just a friendly warning to you that if you shoot that shot it will be a foul.
But you don't take his hint and shoot the shot anyway and he calls foul and "voices why it was a foul". But you don't tell us what he told you was the reason he called it a foul.
I think at the time he "warned" you that you were going to foul you should have stopped and called a third party to watch the shot. It sounds like your ego got in the way of common sense.
Now I am curious as to just what he said to you when he voiced "why it was a foul".
People can see a double hit foul before you shoot it because they know it is humanly impossible to make the shot without double hitting the CB.
10-21-2003, 02:15 AM
Sid, let me guess....the 2 ball was still on the table!!!LOL
10-21-2003, 07:12 AM
"If it was hit more full with left, then it definately could have been a foul."
It was mostly thick but at the angle you see in WEI. The CB actually cruised behind the blocking balls after hitting the long rail. Maybe I learned something and have been getting away with this(as many others have I'll add) and it was a foul, but I still contend that the opponent had no real idea how I was actually gonna strike the CB before the hit. Probably a fairly accurate theory in his mind, and as much right as wrong now that it's over....sid~~~learned a little with this one, DOH!
10-21-2003, 07:18 AM
Jim...You're right on all counts. Just stings to be wrong, and wrong for a long time. I learned sumpthin'...sid
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