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CrispyFish
10-20-2003, 01:57 PM
How much deflection is considered "normal"? I have a Viking cue from 1997 with a Hercules medium tip, and to hit this shot, I have to aim about half-ball, as shown:

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wei table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

Is that about right?

-CF

Rod
10-20-2003, 04:56 PM
Your saying in order to split center pocket, you need to aim at 1/2 the o/b, to the right side of the o/b using right hand english? If that is true, that is a lot of compensation. Are you sure your aiming that far off?

I would say with almost any cue, or shaft just aiming at the left side of the pocket at that distance is adequit. That is nowhere close to 1/2 ball difference in aim.

Rod

Chris Cass
10-20-2003, 05:02 PM
Hi Rod,

You have to take into account the shooter. No offence to the poster. Most players I see aim in one spot and hit in another. The tape tells the tale. Also, the vision aspect. This is a question for an instructor that can be there to see what's happening. Would you agree Rod?

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Rod
10-20-2003, 05:21 PM
CC,

I'd agree with anything you said! Except don't tell me I owe you $500! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Seriously I do agree with you, it's hard to tell what's happening from this desk. Your right, where they aim and where they hit may be completely different.

I don't have a table handy for an experiment. CC would you say off hand just aiming for the left side of the pocket should be adequit? Nothing exact but close. Course I am talking about a 9 footer, a 7 footer would be close but not the same.

Rod

CrispyFish
10-20-2003, 05:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> Your saying in order to split center pocket, you need to aim at 1/2 the o/b, to the right side of the o/b using right hand english? If that is true, that is a lot of compensation. Are you sure your aiming that far off?

I would say with almost any cue, or shaft just aiming at the left side of the pocket at that distance is adequit. That is nowhere close to 1/2 ball difference in aim.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>
Yup, that's what I'm saying. I'm pretty sure that's where I'm aiming, too, because I'm capable of hitting a perfectly dead stop shot from that distance. I'm sure it has something to do with the speed of hit, too. I'm hitting this ball with some authority. I think a softer hit would not deflect as much.

Anyway, I agree that it would be good to have an instructor watch me. I'll hopefully be taking up some lessons with Fran Crimi soon, so I'll try to remember to ask her to look at me shoot this shot...

-CF

Tom_In_Cincy
10-20-2003, 05:46 PM
And, the amount of side you are putting on the cue ball will be a factor. If just a half tip, the squirt of the cue ball would be much less than a full tip or more from center.

CrispyFish
10-20-2003, 07:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> And, the amount of side you are putting on the cue ball will be a factor. If just a half tip, the squirt of the cue ball would be much less than a full tip or more from center. <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, if you look at the diagram, I'm putting at least a tip of right, probably more.

-CF

pooltchr
10-21-2003, 05:56 AM
If memory serves me correctly, I think Ross posted a link to a very detailed examination of the effects and interaction of deflection, squirt and throw, all of which can impact how the shot actually turns out. I just don't remember where it was. Anyone have that link?

Fred Agnir
10-21-2003, 07:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CrispyFish:</font><hr> How much deflection is considered "normal"? I have a Viking cue from 1997 with a Hercules medium tip, and to hit this shot, I have to aim about half-ball, as shown:

START(
%AH4V5%PT8I2%UI0U1%VT0I9%eC3a4

)END

wei table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

Is that about right?

-CF <hr /></blockquote>

I can't remember when Viking decided to remove that metal pin in the ferrule. I think they removed it from their design before '97. So, I would expect older Vikings to have higher than normal squirt. "Newer" Vikings (sans pin) to have normal squirt levels.

From your diagram, I think if you're hitting a firm stop (and madly spinning) shot, then it looks about what I'd expect for results from normal cues with pivot points in the 10"- 15" range.

Any idea what your pivot point is?

Fred

CrispyFish
10-21-2003, 07:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>I can't remember when Viking decided to remove that metal pin in the ferrule. I think they removed it from their design before '97. So, I would expect older Vikings to have higher than normal squirt. "Newer" Vikings (sans pin) to have normal squirt levels.

From your diagram, I think if you're hitting a firm stop (and madly spinning) shot, then it looks about what I'd expect for results from normal cues with pivot points in the 10"- 15" range.

Any idea what your pivot point is?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>
Thanks, Fred. You're absolutely right; I'm using a firm hit and the cue ball is moving very little (but spinning plenty) after contact.

I bought the cue in '97, but I'm pretty sure it's one of their older models because of the amount of threading in the joint. The newer cues have quick-release joints. I haven't actually measured the pivot point with a ruler -- is the 10-15" measured from the butt of the cue?

-CF

Fred Agnir
10-21-2003, 08:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CrispyFish:</font><hr> Thanks, Fred. You're absolutely right; I'm using a firm hit and the cue ball is moving very little (but spinning plenty) after contact.

I bought the cue in '97, but I'm pretty sure it's one of their older models because of the amount of threading in the joint. The newer cues have quick-release joints. I haven't actually measured the pivot point with a ruler -- is the 10-15" measured from the butt of the cue?

-CF <hr /></blockquote>

The pivot point is measured from the tip to the point on the shaft that you have to pivot about to get your final aim.

Here's how to test and measure your pivot point (from the pool and billiard FAQ set up by Bob Jewett:

------------------------------------------------
The "aim-and-pivot" method of squirt compensation:

For each cue stick, there is a particular length of bridge for
which you can aim straight at a close object ball and then pivot
about your bridge hand and shoot straight through the new line and
hit the object ball full. (You can also use this (very old) method
for non-full shots too, but a full shot is best for finding the
right bridge length.) For a stick you want to measure, just find
the needed bridge length. A hint: if you shoot softly at a ball
far away, the cue ball will curve on its way to the object ball,
and your measurement will be useless. Do not give the cue ball the
time or distance to curve. Shoot firmly. Use as much side spin
as you can without miscuing. The shorter the bridge, the more
squirt the stick has. ("Close object ball" means about a diamond
away.) The cue ball should sit in place spinning like a top when
it hits the object ball full.

For a long pivot length, the bridge is too long to be a comfortable
pivot. Arrange to have the pivot over the rail, and use your back
hand to hold the stick at the pivot while the bridge hand moves.
An alternative is to slide the bridge hand forward after the pivot
to a more comfortable bridge length. Take care to keep the stick
aligned in the new direction.
.

----------------------------------

PM me if you have questions, as I think this explanation needs an update.

Fred

CrispyFish
10-21-2003, 08:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>The pivot point is measured from the tip to the point on the shaft that you have to pivot about to get your final aim.

Here's how to test and measure your pivot point (from the pool and billiard FAQ set up by Bob Jewett:

...

Fred <hr /></blockquote>
Very interesting! I'd never heard of this before, but it seems like a very useful experiment for comparing cues. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just one question: just how close should the CB and OB be? It seems to me that an identical distance should be used by anybody doing this test, for the results to have any kind of useful meaning...

-CF &lt;~~~ learns something new every day! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Fred Agnir
10-21-2003, 08:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CrispyFish:</font><hr> Very interesting! I'd never heard of this before, but it seems like a very useful experiment for comparing cues. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just one question: just how close should the CB and OB be? It seems to me that an identical distance should be used by anybody doing this test, for the results to have any kind of useful meaning...

-CF &lt;~~~ learns something new every day! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Good question. I don't have a real answer, but when I do the test, I put them about a foot apart, and hit the balls very firmly. I don't want swerve to be any part of the equation.

Fred

Ross
10-21-2003, 11:26 AM
The link is http://www.duke.edu/~rulmer/poolterms.htm .

The amount of squirt is almost entirely determined by two factors -

1. the stick, specifically the end mass of the stick
2. the amount of horizontal offset from center the cb is struck

The speed of the stroke does not affect the amount of squirt. However, for slower hits the cue ball swerves in the opposite direction of the squirt. So when shooting softer, you need to compensate less for squirt because the swerve is doing some of the compensation for you. On high speed shots, swerve never comes in to play so you have to make a full compensation for squirt.

One-half ball squirt at the distance of a couple of feet is awful. Replace the stick, or figure out some way to lessen the end mass in the last few inches of the shaft.

CrispyFish
10-21-2003, 12:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr> The link is http://www.duke.edu/~rulmer/poolterms.htm .

The amount of squirt is almost entirely determined by two factors -

1. the stick, specifically the end mass of the stick
2. the amount of horizontal offset from center the cb is struck

The speed of the stroke does not affect the amount of squirt. However, for slower hits the cue ball swerves in the opposite direction of the squirt. So when shooting softer, you need to compensate less for squirt because the swerve is doing some of the compensation for you. On high speed shots, swerve never comes in to play so you have to make a full compensation for squirt.

One-half ball squirt at the distance of a couple of feet is awful. Replace the stick, or figure out some way to lessen the end mass in the last few inches of the shaft. <hr /></blockquote>
Ross, thanks for the clarification.

Just one gripe: this is not a 2-foot shot. Assuming each diamond to be 1 foot, this shot is 2 feet over and 2 feet down the table. Pythagoras' Theorem tells us that the distance is Sqrt(4 + 4) = 2.82, or nearly 3 feet. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

-CF &lt;--- should have been a math major. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Chris Cass
10-21-2003, 12:45 PM
Hi Rod,

Yes, I would agree about the left side of the pocket. I cut the pocket into 3 on all my shots myself. I do however think the shooter shouldn't delv(is there a word delv?) so deeply into it too much as it'll drive them crazy. I don't think anyone should make the game that hard.LOL

Yes, you do have to compensate. Yes, your eyes also compensate. Mentally, this should be overcome in time, table time. It's ok for conversation and interesting for sure but before you make up your mind I think it should be shot on video. It's one of our greatest tools IMHO. The other is instructors. True one has to know what to look for and what to tape. Fran will definitely help this person. Not questioning you Rod. I know you know your stuff.

Mr. Jewett(sp?) has this engineer stuff down and is well over my head. I have taught players in the past but never had one ask about deflection. LOL I guess, I was lucky. hahaha Actually, in a round about way have taught the difference between aim points and actual aim points. Same thing I guess.

I have only 2 students, Heide and Christ. Video tape is my teacher and I also pick my words carefully. LOL I do stress to some reading this stuff about video. You have to have someone that knows what to shoot and what to look for while taping. The one thing I do recommend is bring the tape to someone who knows.

I hope I didn't bore you Rod. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

My Best Rod,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

plato 17
10-21-2003, 12:49 PM
Any time you go outside the center of the cue ball, apply one to two tips right english, and your cue is jacked up, and not perfectly level, if you hit 4:30 draw, the deflection is less than 2:00 where it is a lot. When you hit right, the cue ball squirts out left of the shot line, then it curves back to that line and somewhere on that line it self compensates, the problem is knowing where that is. That causes the player to adjust his aim knowing the cue ball will not arrive at a point it is aimed at, ie, aim at the center of the object ball, the cue ball will arrive probably an inch or two to the left of that target because the cue ball has not had the time to curve or masse back to the target line.

If you play a lot of pool for years, your mind, cpu, will make that self aim adjustment automatically for you. If you change cues, then you are screwed for weeks until that new aim mental adjustment is acquired for the new cue deflection.

All cues deflect, and playing with a cue with too much deflection is doing nothing but putting a spot on your head. You are giving your opponent two missed shots in a set because of deflection causing you to miss that shot.

Therefore it is best to find a cue that deflects the least and that is why the 314 and red dot shafts have had success.

The next time you have to shoot the cue ball a long way down table and need to apply english to get back down table with the cue ball, do not use 10 or 2, instead hit the shot with a perfectly level cue, you cannot be jacked up, not any, and use 3 or 9, use as much as you want, because doing this, has now beated most of the curve and deflection the cue was causing. Jacking up, causes the deflection, all you are doing is technically hitting a light masse or curve shot. Shooting level, eliminates this. Ask any good 3 cushion billiard player, he will confirm this. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

CrispyFish
10-21-2003, 01:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hi Rod,

Yes, I would agree about the left side of the pocket. I cut the pocket into 3 on all my shots myself. I do however think the shooter shouldn't delv(is there a word delv?) so deeply into it too much as it'll drive them crazy. I don't think anyone should make the game that hard.LOL<hr /></blockquote>
I asked the question because it seemed like a lot of deflection. With all the shotmaking drills, I'm getting used to it, to the point where I can make tough cut shots with inside english much more consistently now. Still, I wonder if my cue deflects excessively. I will put the question to Fran when I get a chance.

-CF

Chris Cass
10-21-2003, 04:36 PM
Hi CF,

Please don't misunderstand me. I think it's great to hear your going to see Fran. Good idea. I also am curious as to the dia of the cue in question. Like shaft tapper. In any event, good luck my friend.

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

10-21-2003, 04:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CrispyFish:</font><hr> How much deflection is considered "normal"? I have a Viking cue from 1997 with a Hercules medium tip, and to hit this shot, I have to aim about half-ball, as shown:


SIR, ANY AMOUNT IS TOO MUCH, LISTEN TO WHAT PLATO WROTE, seek out the cue and shaft that deflects the least. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

START(
%AH4V5%PT8I2%UI0U1%VT0I9%eC3a4

)END

wei table (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

Is that about right?

-CF <hr /></blockquote>

Ross
10-21-2003, 04:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CrispyFish:</font><hr>
Ross, thanks for the clarification.

Just one gripe: this is not a 2-foot shot. Assuming each diamond to be 1 foot, this shot is 2 feet over and 2 feet down the table. Pythagoras' Theorem tells us that the distance is Sqrt(4 + 4) = 2.82, or nearly 3 feet. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

-CF &lt;--- should have been a math major. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Crispy, OK, OK, ... 1/2 ball deflection at 2.82 feet is still quite a bit. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Not trying to put down your stick, but just wanted you to know that that is more compensation than you should have to deal with. Maybe, as others have been saying, it is not really that much deflection, but is a flaw in the aim or the stroke. Do you need to compensate as much when you shoot the mirror image of the shot? Do you have to compensate as much when you use a friend's cue? These are some of the methods you could try to isolate whether it is your stick or your stroke.

CrispyFish
10-22-2003, 08:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ross:</font><hr>Crispy, OK, OK, ... 1/2 ball deflection at 2.82 feet is still quite a bit. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Not trying to put down your stick, but just wanted you to know that that is more compensation than you should have to deal with. Maybe, as others have been saying, it is not really that much deflection, but is a flaw in the aim or the stroke. Do you need to compensate as much when you shoot the mirror image of the shot? Do you have to compensate as much when you use a friend's cue? These are some of the methods you could try to isolate whether it is your stick or your stroke. <hr /></blockquote>
I agree, it's a lot of deflection, and yes, it's the same in both directions. A half-ball hit either way.

I took Fred's advice and measured the pivot point last night. With the cue ball about 10" from the OB, the pivot point using 2 tips of right is approximately 10". That is, I set up a straight in shot 10" from the OB. Using a 10" bridge, I aimed dead center, then pivoted my cue to get 2 tips of right english. The CB deflected and hit the OB dead-on, stopping on a dime and spinning like mad.

I guess that is a LOT of deflection, huh? Time to buy a new cue! (Oh, the horror! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

-CF

bluewolf
10-22-2003, 08:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CrispyFish:</font><hr> How much deflection is considered "normal"? <hr /></blockquote>

I have a predator sneaky pete, which I have heard has very little deflection. I also heard that this is of greatest benefits in harder hitters. I dont hit hard but more medium and sometimes soft (lag speed). What about some of the good custom cues? Are they okay in deflection?

Curious about this because I have a scruggs coming in less than two months. The blackheart I have seems to hit good and be accurate.

In case anyone asks, the blackheart is beautiful, a bit heavy for me so my brother in law is using it.

Laura

Perk
10-22-2003, 09:28 AM
Laura,

How are you going to gain consistently and improve your game if you are consistently switching cues? Last year you were hyped up about your Blackheart and improving your game. Now you have custom on the way? What about your game?

Anyone can tell ya they can play with any cue, but to get to a higher level of consistency, stick with the same cue for a while. IMO

Fred Agnir
10-22-2003, 09:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CrispyFish:</font><hr> I took Fred's advice and measured the pivot point last night. With the cue ball about 10" from the OB, the pivot point using 2 tips of right is approximately 10". That is, I set up a straight in shot 10" from the OB. Using a 10" bridge, I aimed dead center, then pivoted my cue to get 2 tips of right english. The CB deflected and hit the OB dead-on, stopping on a dime and spinning like mad.

I guess that is a LOT of deflection, huh? Time to buy a new cue! (Oh, the horror! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif )<hr /></blockquote>

IMO, it's the correct amount of squirt if you're going to use backhand english.

If you're going to use parallel aiming, then a zero or near zero squirt cue might be the way to go for some people.

Neither is "bad" IMO. Neither is better, IMO. Each has perceived advantages and perceived disadvantages.

Fred

Ross
10-22-2003, 10:25 AM
10" is a short pivot point. As Fred says, if your bridge length tends to be 10" you can just get all of your english by lining up straight then pivoting the cue around your bridge. The problem with this, as I see it, is that you can't always get a 10" bridge length (intervening balls, etc.) and sometimes you will want to use a shorter or longer bridge for other reasons. So you will have to use intuitive compensation for deflection anyway, so why not get a cue that requires less of this compensation.

As an alternative, you could just buy a new shaft rather than a new cue. Predator makes one that fits, if you want to go that route. A newer Viking cue shaft without the pin may have less deflection, or you could have a shaft custom made. This would be less expensive than buying a new cue and would accomplish the goal of reducing deflection.

Popcorn
10-22-2003, 11:19 AM
DO NOT WORRY ABOUT IT, you are going to love your Scruggs. Don't get caught up in the deflection trap. Nine out of ten shots it would make no difference at all anyway. I play a lot around the middle of the cue ball and except on some kind of long shot with spin, the deflection does not even matter. It is true some shafts have too much deflection, and to be honest, if the cuemaker had tested it, and there is a way, it should have been discarded. In general most all shafts are very playable and you can play your best with them. On a long shot with extrema spin, all shafts deflect to some degree and making the ball is not automatic. I would hate to see you get your new cue, take it to the poolroom and have someone put doubts in your mind about it. Play with it and use your own judgment whether it is an asset to your game or not. I bet it will be.

Popcorn
10-22-2003, 11:28 AM
You are right about that, you have to have confidence in your cue even when you are playing bad. You can't be blaming the cue, after all you played great yesterday with it. I have seen players that after a miss begin changing shafts. It is a needless distraction, unless something is actually wrong, such as the tip or the cue has began making a noise or something, just concentrate on playing the game. All that other stuff will drive you nuts. And you defiantly don't want to be doing it in the middle of a match.

bluewolf
10-22-2003, 11:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> DO NOT WORRY ABOUT IT, you are going to love your Scruggs. Don't get caught up in the deflection trap. Nine out of ten shots it would make no difference at all anyway. I play a lot around the middle of the cue ball and except on some kind of long shot with spin, the deflection does not even matter. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Popcorn. I heard that deflection was more of a factor with hard hitting so I question whether it even matters to me. I have picked up other sticks that were decent and they seemed to hit fine as long as my technique was right. Some of this technical stuff gets me confused. Throw I understand, swerve I understand but the deflection stuff must be over my head. People have explained it on here so many times and it just does not sink in. I guess I just need to keep hitting balls and not worry. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I dreamed about the scruggs last night. Two more months to wait.

Laura

CrispyFish
10-22-2003, 12:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>Throw I understand, swerve I understand but the deflection stuff must be over my head. People have explained it on here so many times and it just does not sink in. I guess I just need to keep hitting balls and not worry. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Laura<hr /></blockquote>
To understand deflection, try this:

Put a basketball, soccer ball, or something similar on a table. Poke it with your finger in the middle. It will roll straight forward. Now poke it with your finger in the same direction, but a few inches left or right of center. It will roll forward *at an angle*. That is deflection, squirt, whatever you want to call it. It means that the ball will travel in a *different direction* than your finger (or cue) was pointing. That's why people worry about it.

That said, it doesn't matter what you call it, whether it's deflection or voodoo magic -- you still have to be able to shoot the shot. Practice is the only remedy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

-CF

Rod
10-22-2003, 11:41 PM
Chris,

Bore me, no way. Yes Mr Jewett, the engineer, LOL does get into rocket science. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Well lets just say some of this stuff gets over analized. You either have a repeating stroke and knowledge of shot execution or you don't.

If your going to teach you really do have to know about squirt. Someone may not get all that anilitical in an explanation, but that can be ok. I set up a couple of shots tonite. I said get three rail position from here. Well there was some discussion, even from a couple of good players. One asked me to shoot it, I drilled it three times in a row. No super stroke, but a good stroke. You have to know how to aim, english, cue speed and appx angle, but it's not rocket science.

~~~ rod, had yet another guy that knew a draw shot, but didn't hit below center! These people must put in more when the basket is passed around ! ha ha ha