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View Full Version : DID MOSCONI WORRY ABOUT DEFLECTION?????



BLACKHEART
10-20-2003, 09:22 PM
Deflection, radial pins,layered tips,pie shaped laminated shafts. At a trade show I asked Willie Mosconi about some of these things. His answer was simple. "I think it's an excuse for missing. I know where I have to hit the cue ball, to make the ball & that's all I've ever thought about".

Everyone wants to tell the story about the guy,that ran out useing a broom,but follow that with the statement that you have to have a radial pin in your cue to play good. I think Willie was closer to the truth that he knew...JER

Popcorn
10-20-2003, 11:02 PM
He may have had throw away answers when people asked him questions like that, but he was a fanatic when it came to equipment. He may measure the height of the rails on a championship table before playing. At exhibitions he always had his own balls. I am pretty sure he was aware of variables of different cues and had very specific likes and dislikes.

Fred Agnir
10-21-2003, 07:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> Deflection, radial pins,layered tips,pie shaped laminated shafts. At a trade show I asked Willie Mosconi about some of these things. His answer was simple. "I think it's an excuse for missing. I know where I have to hit the cue ball, to make the ball &amp; that's all I've ever thought about".

Everyone wants to tell the story about the guy,that ran out useing a broom,but follow that with the statement that you have to have a radial pin in your cue to play good. I think Willie was closer to the truth that he knew...JER

<hr /></blockquote>
The going story about Willie Mosconi was that he was more persnickity about equipment than anyone. He was a perfectionist. He bitched about humidity and other equipment conditions.

Did he worry about deflection or radial pins? Well, they weren't topics in his day. Plus he logged championship hours like no other. The rest of us aren't champions. And the rest of us don't "worry" about deflection or radial pins.

Fred

Rich R.
10-21-2003, 09:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> Re: DID MOSCONI WORRY ABOUT DEFLECTION?????
<hr /></blockquote>
"Worry" is a strong word.

I would say that Mosconi "considered" deflection, but he didn't worry about it. JMHO.

Obviously, he had the situation well in hand and did not have to worry about it.

RUNaRAK
10-21-2003, 12:52 PM
Worry, hehehe.. I am sure he was aware &amp; learned to compensate rather well! Champions adapt...As he was..
His stroke was so consistent &amp; pure, it was frightful. Whatever W.M. did, it surely worked for him..

Joe

Scott Lee
10-21-2003, 12:57 PM
Rich...Deflection was not even in a poolplayer's vocabulary in Mosconi's day...or even in the 70's. It started in the late 80's with the BS (imo) associated with the new types of shaft construction. Again, if you know how to stroke the CB properly (which means move the cuestick more accurately and repeatably) deflection is less of an issue.
Many players today want it to be the MAJOR influence on their game...again, imo, a big mistake. As most people who know me know...that about says it all, as far as how I feel about all the "non-deflecting" shafts out there. But...if it works for you, then more power to ya! I think it's more mental then actual physical difference...but again, that's jmo.

Scott Lee

Popcorn
10-21-2003, 01:07 PM
May have to do with the game he played also. Deflection may not be that big a factor in 14.1 most of the time. I know when I was learning to play, we talked about over cutting and under cutting to make the balls. They were aware, but just made it a part of their games I don't think anything is really that different today when you come down to it.

plato 17
10-21-2003, 01:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> Deflection, radial pins,layered tips,pie shaped laminated shafts. At a trade show I asked Willie Mosconi about some of these things. His answer was simple. "I think it's an excuse for missing. I know where I have to hit the cue ball, to make the ball &amp; that's all I've ever thought about".

Everyone wants to tell the story about the guy,that ran out useing a broom,but follow that with the statement that you have to have a radial pin in your cue to play good. I think Willie was closer to the truth that he knew...JER

<hr /></blockquote>


FL is like Mosconi in that he will only play with his perfect set of Centinneals, he measures the pocket width with a tape measure, uses a rail height guage on every rail and carries a temp/humidity guage. He tries to control as much as he can and know what is not good so he can adjust to this as well. There is nothing wrong with this, it's just being smart and having a lot of experience.

The answer Mosconi gave was a true answer. He did not have to think about deflection, he had been playing for so long, with the same cue, no thinking was required, his mind, cpu, lined up and gave him the shot every time. If he thought about it, he would probably miss it.

Play pool for 14 hours a day 24/7 and in 10 to 14 years, you too will be able to do this as well. If you have a job and wife and life, then go buy a cue and shaft that deflects less. That is why the 314 and red dots have had so much success, they deflect less, so there is less aim adjustment to do. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

nAz
10-21-2003, 01:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> Deflection, radial pins,layered tips,pie shaped laminated shafts. At a trade show I asked Willie Mosconi about some of these things. His answer was simple. "I think it's an excuse for missing. I know where I have to hit the cue ball, to make the ball &amp; that's all I've ever thought about".

Everyone wants to tell the story about the guy,that ran out useing a broom,but follow that with the statement that you have to have a radial pin in your cue to play good. I think Willie was closer to the truth that he knew...JER

<hr /></blockquote>


hey BH Good post reminds me of what i tell people when they ask me about deflection. " if you think about it your gonna miss your shot, just aim at the spot to make the ball and shoot the fcuking thing"

BLACKHEART
10-21-2003, 04:07 PM
nAz &amp; Scott you are right on. Too ofen I see players blame the cue for poor play. As if some new technology could make up for a poor stroke or lack of practice. The cues &amp; balls of Willie's day were very different,than those we are lucky enough to play with today. The cues &amp; certainly the heavy balls of Willie's day were not as goood as todays. These are just ramblings &amp; observations of an old man &amp; certainly not carved in stone...JER

Cueless Joey
10-21-2003, 04:31 PM
Willie didn't have to worry about bleached forced-growth maple shafts. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
What he most likely had was a really freakin' out of this world great hitting shaft.
Of course Predator shafts are the snake oil for those who can't run three balls. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

tateuts
10-21-2003, 05:30 PM
He did think about it. He missed the 527th ball one time, threw his cue on the floor, and muttered "squirt".

Chris

CrispyFish
10-22-2003, 08:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr>His answer was simple. "I think it's an excuse for missing. I know where I have to hit the cue ball, to make the ball &amp; that's all I've ever thought about".<hr /></blockquote>
The way I read this, Willie just meant that people will use deflection as an excuse, as if it were out of their control. You miss a shot and you say, "The deflection made me miss!" It doesn't mean you shouldn't think about deflection -- on the contrary, it means you need to practice to the point where you don't use it as a lame excuse anymore...

-CF

Rich R.
10-22-2003, 10:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Deflection was not even in a poolplayer's vocabulary in Mosconi's day...<hr /></blockquote>
Scott, whether they called it deflection, some other name or had no name at all for it, I'm sure they considered it, even if they didn't realize it. The physics of yesteryear are the same as the physics of today. We just have more names for things.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>Many players today want it to be the MAJOR influence on their game...again, imo, a big mistake.<hr /></blockquote>
I agree that it shouldn't be a big thing. It is part of learning how to play pool well. However, it is big enough, that it has to be considered. I don't believe Mosconi could have run hundreds of balls, without considering deflection, even if it was subconsciously. JMHO.

BLACKHEART
10-22-2003, 11:58 AM
RICH, I think you have caught the essence of what I thought he meant. By the way the 1st time I ever got to talk to Willie, was at a BCA TRADE SHOW in the middle '80s, in Louisville Ky. I asked if he would take a picture with me &amp; he said he'd be happy to. Then I asked him a few questions &amp; we talked for about 20 minutes. He really seemed genuenly interested in the things we were talking about. We talked about how I was just getting started in my cue making &amp; cues in general. Then he blew me away. He said "Have you ever hit with a Balabushka"? I said "no" &amp; then he says "Want to hit a few balls with mine"? Then he opens his case &amp; hands it to me. I know my face was flushed, because I was so excited to hold the masters Q. Then the roof fell in. His wife came over &amp; says "Come on Willie, you have to go &amp; rest up for your exibition later". I handed it back to him &amp; he leaned over &amp; said "She's a good woman, but sometimes I think she worries about me too much". I met &amp; talked with him several more times, at other venues, but I never did get to hit with that Q. Later I did buy a Balabushka &amp; made 4 times what I paid for it, when I sold it. BUT I WOULD HAVE GIVEN ANYTHING TO HAVE HIT WITH MY IDOL'S CUE...JER (how come I can remember these things so clearly &amp; I can't remember if I ate breakfast?????????)

Cueless Joey
10-22-2003, 12:03 PM
Jer, a friend of mine owns a few Bushkas.
They have buzzes now in the butt. He did not have epoxy back in those days I guess.
But, they all hit really well because of their shafts are very stiff. Even if they have knotts and sugar streaks.
You don't get those kind of shafts nowadays.

hondo
10-22-2003, 12:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Rich...Deflection was not even in a poolplayer's vocabulary in Mosconi's
So if the word isn't in our vocabulary, does
the concept exist? I think not. The eskimos
have a hundred words for snow. We call it snow
and get out our shovel. Over analyze, over analyze.
If Mosconi had known about it, it would have
worried him to death. He did " okay" without
the term.
Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

hondo
10-22-2003, 12:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Rich...Deflection was not even in a poolplayer's vocabulary in Mosconi's
So if the word isn't in our vocabulary, does
the concept exist? I think not. The eskimos
have a hundred words for snow. We call it snow
and get out our shovel. Over analyze, over analyze.
If Mosconi had known about it, it would have
worried him to death. He did " okay" without
the term.
<hr /></blockquote>

Rich R.
10-22-2003, 12:46 PM
Great story Jer. It is a real shame, you did not get to hit a few balls.
But that is still a very nice memory. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee
10-22-2003, 05:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BLACKHEART:</font><hr> Later I did buy a Balabushka &amp; made 4 times what I paid for it, when I sold it. <hr /></blockquote>

JER...I made TWENTY times what I paid for mine (after playing with it for 17 yrs), when I sold it to Atlas Billiard Supply in 1992. Damn...wish I'd held onto it longer! Probably would have made 50x by now! LOL
Really amazing what those cues are bringing today! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Scott

Qtec
10-22-2003, 08:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
DID MOSCONI WORRY ABOUT DEFLECTION????? <hr /></blockquote>

No.
I,ll bet he never knew the 'pivot point' of his cue either. He had probably never heard of the phrase'elastic collisions',knew 60 different diamond systems or could prove mathematicaly why he kept getting a 90degree angle after potting a ball.
Quite possibly he had never heard of Newton or any of his laws of phyisics that would help him play better.

I,ll bet he never knew how complicated this game really is. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Qtec

Rod
10-22-2003, 08:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
DID MOSCONI WORRY ABOUT DEFLECTION????? <hr /></blockquote>

I,ll bet he never knew how complicated this game really is. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

Whas wrong with that? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Too many people are trying to fix something that isn't broke! LOL

Rod

Rod
10-22-2003, 08:58 PM
Good Post Jer, I think your right. Of course a lot more went on in his mind, but that essentially sums it up. There will always be people out there trying to buy a game when they still have much to learn.

Rod

Fred Agnir
10-23-2003, 07:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>

No.
I,ll bet he never knew the 'pivot point' of his cue either. <hr /></blockquote>

Probably not. But I'm sure he compensated for squirt.

[ QUOTE ]
He had probably never heard of the phrase'elastic collisions',knew 60 different diamond systems ... <hr /></blockquote>Do you believe anyone thinks that hearing the phrase "elastic collision" helps their game? It's a bit of a strawman argument, isn't it? Is anyone on this board so shallow, dimwitted, or na´ve to think that the discussion technical knowledge in of itself is supposed to improve your game?

Discussion is discussion. Play is play. Practice is practice. I know the differences. Do you? I would hope so.

Fred

Qtec
10-23-2003, 08:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>

No.
I,ll bet he never knew the 'pivot point' of his cue either. <hr /></blockquote>

Probably not. But I'm sure he compensated for squirt. <font color="blue"> Of course he did. You have to. </font color>

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
He had probably never heard of the phrase'elastic collisions',knew 60 different diamond systems ... <hr /></blockquote>Do you believe anyone thinks that hearing the phrase "elastic collision" helps their game? It's a bit of a strawman argument, isn't it? Is anyone on this board so shallow, dimwitted, or na´ve to think that the discussion technical knowledge in of itself is supposed to improve your game?

<font color="blue"> Are you sure? I remember in one of my first posts I said that I gave my students information on a "need to know basis'. I also remember that I was in the minority. The general consensus was more knowledge makes you a better player. </font color>

Discussion is discussion. <font color="blue"> Couldnt agree with you more. </font color> Play is play. <font color="blue"> Ditto. </font color> Practice is practice. [ All depends what you call practice.]
I know the differences. Do you? I would hope so.
<font color="blue"> Mosconi had a good cue and learned how to play with it. He knew the deflection of the cue and compensated for it. Its that simple. </font color>

Fred <hr /></blockquote>













Qtec

Fred Agnir
10-23-2003, 08:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> The general consensus was more knowledge makes you a better player. <hr /></blockquote> That has never been the general consensus. Nobody in their sane mind would ever make or imply such a statement.

The general consensus is that the discussion and further understanding of technical aspects of the game can benefit some people.

It seems like such a simple truth. And yet, there will always be certain posters that like to rain on what could be helpful to some people. Let those who find benefit in the discussion enjoy. Those that find no benefit, I suggest to simply ignore the discussion. I don't find that a difficult concept.

If you don't want to discuss diamond systems/squirt/physics, then don't. But trying to discourage those that like to discuss them or belittle the subject matter would be selfish (and arrogant to boot).

Fred

pooltchr
10-23-2003, 08:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>The general consensus was more knowledge makes you a better player. </font color>

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>
All the knowledge in the world isn't going to make anyone a better player unless that knowledge is applied in a relevent manner with practice. I suspect there are quite a number of "knowledgible" people out there who can's run 3 friggin' balls.

Qtec
10-23-2003, 09:29 AM
I never discouraged anyone nor am I belitteling the discussion. I give my honest opinion based on my experience. We all do. I thought that is what this forum was all about.

BTW, you give too much respect to your opponent, IMO.
How can you expect to win when you think your opponent is "better' than you?

The better player is the one who goes through to the next round after the match is played.


Qtec

Fred Agnir
10-23-2003, 10:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
BTW, you give too much respect to your opponent, IMO.
How can you expect to win when you think your opponent is "better' than you?
<hr /></blockquote>I think this cookie cutter philosophy might do well on beginners, but please. If you mistook my post as some kind of crying or whining, or a "how do I play better in tournaments," then I'll tell you that you missed any of the important points, if there was any. Do you think I was saying all that before I played? I wasn't, nor did I indicate it in my post. Do you think for some reason that I talked myself out of the match? Why, when I clearly did not say anything of the sort? Do you think this is my first tournament?

I'm already not a big fan of this mental philosophical slinging. Why on earth would you think I would even care about your oh-so-standard-fare mental game advice?

If you can't discern who the better player is then not only are you fooling yourself, but you've also closed the door on the opportunity to learn something. Is that the philosophy you want to bring to your students?

Fred

UbetterRUNout
10-23-2003, 10:28 AM
You people don't understand a few things. First no one invented deflection, it was there from the first time someone struck a round object with another round object. If you all want to think if you pretent it doesn't really exsit, that you will shoot better, go ahead... But I know he thought about it, maybe not so much at the end, but as he was learning. My father has been playing good pool in the late 70's and early 80's, and has beaten the best Madison, WI had to offer, as well as "Fats" and Mosconi. And he tought me at a young age, i'd say '79 and he was talking about deflection. The game hasn't changed since day one. theres still deflection, and will always be, the balls are still round as they will always be. The only time defection will be clear from your mind, is when you are 110% confident in your game without any doubt whatsoever. And you use your muscle memory to make the shot. I don't think of it on a shot to shot basis. So my answer, yes he knows plenty about it. You could drive your car around a bend in the road, the first time you slowed down a little, worried about sliding and losing control. After you done the same corner 100 times, you don't think about it any longer you just do it. Now a car comes from the other direction, theres something in the road, the weathers bad. The first times you encounter these you will back off a little till you learn how to get by, again, 100 times later you can go around tire laying in the road, even the rain doesn't slow you down."Memory and Recolection" It doesn't mean its not there, just that you have done it so many times that you don't think about the shot. If something shows up that you havn't encounterd, then you will be thinking about it once again. I hope I didn't ramble on too much...

Mike /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Qtec
10-23-2003, 10:54 AM
you said he was the better player, not that he played better.
There is a difference.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm already not a big fan of this mental philosophical slinging. <font color="blue"> mental attitude is more than 50% of the game, once you reach the higher levels. </font color> Why on earth would you think I would even care about your oh-so-standard-fare mental game advice?
<hr /></blockquote>

Take it or leave it. I,m only trying to help.
I may be harsh, but I say what I think.

BTW, you both play on the same table, dont you?

Qtec.

Fred Agnir
10-23-2003, 11:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> you said he was the better player, not that he played better.
There is a difference.<hr /></blockquote> What are you freakin' talking about? Yes, I got to play a bunch of people this weekend that are indeed better players. Out of the 4 players that I believe have more game than I, I beat 3. That's not a surprise as anyone can beat anyone at anytime. I lose to people who are worse players than I. It happens. I'm good with that. What philosophy are you trying to hand me? I don't get what you're driving at.
[ QUOTE ]
mental attitude is more than 50% of the game, once you reach the higher levels. <hr /></blockquote> This is the type of mental crap that I think is more hurtful advice than helpful.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, you both play on the same table, dont you?<hr /></blockquote>??? What are you getting at? Are you mistaking my post with some other person? Did I complain about losing my matches? Can you quote anything I said that has misled you to answer like you have been? Do you have a single clue about tournament play? Or do you just have these standard tidbits of barroom advice that doesn't apply?

A better player plays better on better equipment. The gap in skill levels increase as the equipment gets better (read "easier" if you'd like). If you don't know this, then you are no tournament player and have little experience outside your pond.

A guy who can run 400 balls on excellent conditions might only be able to run 100 on crappy conditions.A guy who can run 6 balls on excellent conditions might only be able run 3 on crappy conditions. The gap of level of play increases as the table conditions get better. No matter how much you'd like to deny it.

Fred

Fred Agnir
10-23-2003, 11:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Take it or leave it. I,m only trying to help.<hr /></blockquote> If you're trying to help (which I can't see why), can you define the problem you're helping? I never gave one up, so you must be helping a phantom.

[ QUOTE ]
I may be harsh, but I say what I think. <hr /></blockquote> If this makes you feel justified, no sweat. But you're not being harsh. You're in left field.

Fred

Scott Lee
10-23-2003, 11:45 AM
Mike...I agree with your post. The problem, as I see it, is that some cue companies are trying to capitalize on the pool masses general ignorance on the importance of the stroke vs. some fancy doodadd shaft and/or butt construction...which, by the way, they have had remarkable success in sales, due to extreme marketing and advertising.
Look at the marketplace. There are no less than seven companies manufacturing a "zero" or "X% less deflection" shaft. Part of the problem is misunderstanding the difference between cuestick deflection and cueball deflection. You're correct, that players have ALWAYS thought about, and compensated for CB deflection. That is a natural part of the physics of poolplaying. As Popcorn illustrated, us long time players have always thought about overcutting or undercutting balls to compensate for this effect (which occurs ANYTIME you hit the CB right or left of the vertical axis). However, I still maintain that for the HUGE majority of poolplayers (not necessisarily most of the folks who post or lurk here) the issue of deflection is blown way out of proportion, than it's true significance for the average player. LIke you said...once you learn how to REALLY stroke the CB, it becomes a muscle memory, and rote muscle function takes over, on the majority of shots that you have played 100x! This is precisely what I try to teach all my students. Again, I'm talking specifically about the BS claims of certain cue manufacturers...as opposed to CB deflection, which is, I believe, what you were talking about with your father, back in the late 70's.
Good post! Glad to have you here!

BTW, for all you Predator, etc. lovers out there (and MANY of you are my good friends), no offense intended. Like I have always said...if you REALLY REALLY BELIEVE that a certain piece of equipment will make you a better player...it probably will! However, without learning a real stroke first, NO cue or shaft (or tip) will make a significant difference in your overall skill improvement. Once you have acquired that skill, it will never leave you. It's like riding a bike. Once you learn how, you NEVER forget...even if you don't ride a bike for 20+ years.
It's also true that although one may have played pool for even 50 yrs., one may STILL not understand the subleties of a true stroke...at least without having it checked by a competent instructor.

Scott Lee

UbetterRUNout
10-23-2003, 12:28 PM
Yes Scott I agree. There seems to be an huge amount of people going crazy over something that can and will be learned through practice and repetition. One shaft isn't going to make it go away, but I belive through my trials that the Predetor 314 shaft is easier for a beginner to learn on and become a dead on shot in less time. You and I don't see the advantage of the shafts, simply because we have to retrain the muscles to compensate for the differances between common shafts and those claiming to ne "the one". If you were Disciplined enough to start from scrach, and step yourself though pool 101, to teach yourself how to use the P 314 shaft, you would see an improvment over your shot accuracy. The other side to that, if you were Disciplined enough to do that with the cue your holding, wouldn't you to become a better shot?? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

So my words to anyone concerned: If you are Disciplined, Dedicated, and Drivin to become the best you can, any cue can be your weapon. I shoot off the wall at most bars i goto, it might take 3 shots to get a feel for that "off the wall" bar cue, but I still can run out. BUT, if your not as drivin, because of low confidence, then it would help you mentaly to own a shaft that will "make you shoot straighter".

Mike

UbetterRUNout
10-23-2003, 12:48 PM
Steve Mizarak !! Who said being technical can't help your games. Steve was a teacher before being "forced" to play pool, yes "forced". His subject ANGLES, he was a Mathematician, knew angles in and out. His first time playing pool in a bar in Chicago, he ran out. and said thats easy. He never played before that day. To this day he still admits to not liking the game much, but when your good at it, you can't just not play. So yes, Knowledge does help, if you don't have an understanding of why the cue delfects off the rail at different angles when hit at a high or low speed, you'll never be the best. If you don't know why the cues shaft delects off the side of the cue, you'll never be the best. Practice till your blue, 10 hours a day 24/7, you'll never be the best. You need to understand the physics in pool before you can become the best.

Mike

Fred Agnir
10-23-2003, 12:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr> Practice till your blue, 10 hours a day 24/7, you'll never be the best. You need to understand the physics in pool before you can become the best. <hr /></blockquote>I'd think that if these were the two choices, I'd go the practice route before I'd study physics.

But, before you work yourself up into a tizzy, please read past posts before you go berzerko on me about physics and the advantage of its understanding.

Fred &lt;~~~ doubts Earl, Buddy, Efren, or Busty ever studied physics

UbetterRUNout
10-23-2003, 01:06 PM
I don't, I talked to Earl Strickland, and Mike Townsend of Cue-tec at the 2001 Camel Tourny in Vegas, at the Riveara. And you would be surprised how many pro players will tell you to learn some physics. Im not saying you need a MBA in it, but you need a clue.

Yes FRED, till your blue in the face. if you don't know why the cue-ball deflects off the rail at an equal angle you arn't going to be making alot of banks, or kick shots that you havn't practiced over and over and over and over and over .....

Rod
10-23-2003, 01:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You people don't understand a few things. First no one invented deflection, it was there from the first time someone struck a round object with another round object.<hr /></blockquote>

Oh, many of us do. I choose not to dwell on the issue. If you feel the need though, go right ahead. It's there and exists, not a topic easily discussed on an internet forum.

Rod

KBuck
10-23-2003, 01:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr> 10 hours a day 24/7 <hr /></blockquote>

This reminds me of a Steven Wright joke. He pulled into a convenience store parking lot with a sign that said "Open 24 Hours" but the door was locked. He knocked on the door and a guy came over and said "Sorry, we're closed." Wright said "But you're sign says you're open 24 hours" and the man replied "Yes, but not all in one day."

It was probably funnier with Wright's monotone than it is to read, lol. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

wolfdancer
10-23-2003, 01:19 PM
AND I bet Willie Mays didn't study ballistics, but still could track and catch a fly ball...and not too many dogs understand aerodynamics, but seem to do a good job catching frisbees

Steve Lipsky
10-23-2003, 01:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr> Steve Mizarak !! His first time playing pool in a bar in Chicago, he ran out. and said thats easy. He never played before that day.

Mike <hr /></blockquote>

Let me go officially on the record to say I don't believe a word of this story.

- Steve

P.S. This goes up there with when Ginky won the National 14.1 Tournament at Amsterdam 4 years ago, and either Billiards Digest or P&amp;B reported he had only played 14.1 for 30 days.

Sometimes the crap that is either printed or spoken about this game is pretty funny.

Cueless Joey
10-23-2003, 01:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr> Steve Mizarak !! His first time playing pool in a bar in Chicago, he ran out. and said thats easy. He never played before that day.

Mike <hr /></blockquote>

Let me go officially on the record to say I don't believe a word of this story.

- Steve

P.S. This goes up there with when Ginky won the National 14.1 Tournament at Amsterdam 4 years ago, and either Billiards Digest or P&amp;B reported he had only played 14.1 for 30 days.

Sometimes the crap that is either printed or spoken about this game is pretty funny. <hr /></blockquote>
It's true. Also if you want to be as smooth and keen-eyed like Efren, you should eat worms.
Worms improve eyesight and make you more fluid.

wolfdancer
10-23-2003, 01:31 PM
Scott, yer wrong, as usual....deflection is very important...we won the war in Iraq, easily because of all dem Iraqi soldiers deflecting

UbetterRUNout
10-23-2003, 01:34 PM
Yeah that is a bit funny, I ment to put 10 hours a day, 365 days a year or something. Just needed to make a point that without understanding why things on a pool table happen, practice alone isn't going to make you the best. You have to know a little about why the angle out is less on a bank the harder you hit the rail. Knowing things like this will make pocketing your next bank easier, or a bank that you never encountered. How many out there are ranked in the top 10 in the world? If you have an open mind, give me your honest answer; Do you think your game would improve if you knew more then the basic angle in equals angle out? How about the 30 degree rule in scratching? isn't that what physics would have taught you? Sure you can if it looks about that angle you have a great chance of scratching, but if you knew why, then you will be able to manipulate it to your advantage. The diamond system, do you think they were put on the table to make it look pretty? They are there for guidence. The Half as much twice as long rule was created of physics.

Mike

UbetterRUNout
10-23-2003, 01:39 PM
I guess you'll just have to ask him on your own. I have a very good source, a guy that was playing in the same pool hall that steve was trained in. Yes the story doesn't sound honest. Maybe the "hasn't played before" tern was used loosely and what was really ment was, "Doesn't play that offten".

Steve Lipsky
10-23-2003, 01:40 PM
That makes more sense. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

- Steve

CrispyFish
10-23-2003, 01:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr>I have a very good source, a guy that was playing in the same pool hall that steve was trained in.<hr /></blockquote>
My mother's cousin's friend's father's nephew saw Willie Mosconi crossing the street one day, and he swears that Willie played with a Predator shaft.

-CF /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

UbetterRUNout
10-23-2003, 01:58 PM
Ya, Crispy you win the idiot award for today. Does it bother you that much that someone knows people. I was born and raised in Sheboygan, WI. My father in the early to mid 80's played in Madison, WI. Places like the Green Room, Cue-nique. 2 of his teamates have gone Pro, and have returned to these Pool halls as owners and trainers. Jerry Briesath, and Ron Dobosenski. If theres anyone in the Madison, WI area I would be glad to get you some info to back my info.

Mike

CrispyFish
10-23-2003, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr> Ya, Crispy you win the idiot award for today. Does it bother you that much that someone knows people. I was born and raised in Sheboygan, WI. My father in the early to mid 80's played in Madison, WI. Places like the Green Room, Cue-nique. 2 of his teamates have gone Pro, and have returned to these Pool halls as owners and trainers. Jerry Briesath, and Ron Dobosenski. If theres anyone in the Madison, WI area I would be glad to get you some info to back my info.

Mike <hr /></blockquote>
Woah there, buddy, calm down. Take a joke. Drink a beer. Relax. I don't know anybody in the pool world and I have no problem admitting that. I'm in my early 20s and I'm relatively new to the game.

That post just reminded me of Spaceballs, you know the scene (or maybe you don't) where Rick Moranis says, "I'm your father's cousin's ... etc... former roommate", or something to that effect. I thought it was funny so I thought I'd make a joke in the same vein. I should have known better. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

-CF &lt;---- reminds himself never to try to be funny again... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Eric.
10-23-2003, 02:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr> Steve Mizarak !! Who said being technical can't help your games. Steve was a teacher before being "forced" to play pool, yes "forced". His subject ANGLES, he was a Mathematician, knew angles in and out. His first time playing pool in a bar in Chicago, he ran out. and said thats easy. He never played before that day. To this day he still admits to not liking the game much, but when your good at it, you can't just not play. So yes, Knowledge does help, if you don't have an understanding of why the cue delfects off the rail at different angles when hit at a high or low speed, you'll never be the best. If you don't know why the cues shaft delects off the side of the cue, you'll never be the best. Practice till your blue, 10 hours a day 24/7, you'll never be the best. You need to understand the physics in pool before you can become the best.

Mike <hr /></blockquote>

I don't want to sound like some kind of know-it-all BUT...

Steve was a World Class player before he was a teacher.

I have played in Mr. Mizeraks(Steve's dad's) poolhall in Perth Amboy, NJ several times, have seen the Miz' game many times(he used to be a regular at the West End tourneys) and I still live in the same area that Steve Mizerak is from. Somebody is pulling your leg.

While I do agree that knowledge of angles, etc will shorten the learning curve, that story has alot of holes in it. Sorry.


Eric

UbetterRUNout
10-23-2003, 02:15 PM
Its all good, i wasn't going off on you. Just letting people know that. And if anyone has played serious pool in the early 80's around Madison, Sheboygan, or lower WI to let me know. Maybe he knows you too. Im 31, and been told all my life about the greatness of my fathers playing abilities, of course you always doubt your father thinking its a ploy to earn your trust. 2 years ago he took me down to Cue-nique in Madison, and behold Jerry remembered him and we talked for a while and shot some pool. It turns out the old man wasn't leadning me on. He had the opertunity to go pro with these guys, but the great fortune, being my sister and myself, he couldn't drop everything and devote his time to the game.

Mike

Fred Agnir
10-23-2003, 02:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr> You have to know a little about why the angle out is less on a bank the harder you hit the rail.<hr /></blockquote> Physics tells us that it's not how hard you hit the balls to make the angle less. I know this from Physics. And the study of said Physics. What Physics do you claim to be studying?

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think your game would improve if you knew more then the basic angle in equals angle out? How about the 30 degree rule in scratching? isn't that what physics would have taught you?<hr /></blockquote>
Geometry and Trigonometry teaches us the 30 degree rule. Physics tells us that it's slightly less than 30 degrees (~28░). Again, what Physics are you studying?

[ QUOTE ]
The diamond system, do you think they were put on the table to make it look pretty? They are there for guidence. The Half as much twice as long rule was created of physics.<hr /></blockquote> Geometry &amp; Trig. again. Not Physics. Physics tells us why we have to compensate for the Diamond Systems. At this point, I'm convinced you know nothing about Physics. You just like to throw the word around. Makes you feel good. Feel good?

You may want to try to read Amateur Pool for the Amateur Pool Player, written by Ron Shepard. It's available in Adobe PDF on the internet as a free download. I'll warn you that it's about Physics. That might come as a surprise as you might be expecting Geometry.

Fred &lt;~~~ played pool with Ron Shepard this weekend.

UbetterRUNout
10-23-2003, 02:20 PM
A teacher before or after is not the point. He didn't wake up one day and think, hmm, i'll be a teacher, he had the knowledge before he played, which in turn made him the player he is. And if you know of his dad and perhaps steve, maybe you can talk to some of the guys around your area and ask about it. I would like to know the real world story. I been around pool halls enough to know that stories change in eachs own perspective. Please fill the holes for me so I don't continue misinforming people.

Fred Agnir
10-23-2003, 02:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr>I don't, I talked to Earl Strickland, and Mike Townsend of Cue-tec at the 2001 Camel Tourny in Vegas, at the Riveara. And you would be surprised how many pro players will tell you to learn some physics. Im not saying you need a MBA in it, but you need a clue. <hr /></blockquote>Did Earl talk back?

How are we supposed to take you seriously when you say that pro pool players tell you to learn physics and then some crap about an MBA.? An MBA has nothing to do with Physics. But, hey, what do I know about Physics anyway?

Fred

Wally_in_Cincy
10-23-2003, 02:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote CrispyFish:</font><hr>

...Drink a beer....

<hr /></blockquote>

Please don't encourage Larry to drink. That makes him really obnoxious.

UbetterRUNout
10-23-2003, 02:27 PM
True fred it does, but like i was saying its the physics that make up the different angles after the ball hits the rail at high or low speeds. physics teach us how to manipulate the (28)30 degree scrach angle. Geometry is all over the table in a perfect world you should be able to hit the ball as hard as you can and it will follow the diamonds till is falls in a pocket. geometry gives you the idea, the physics of Friction, Speed, Spin, will give us the real-world outcome.

does that clarify anything for you. Its still physics that will come into play in the end.

Mike

Fred Agnir
10-23-2003, 02:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr> You people don't understand a few things. <hr /></blockquote> Like why you didn't bother reading several posts before coming in with guns a-blazing? Maybe then you'd realize that your statement is blatantly false.

With all due respect to your father (whom you are unfairly using as some tool to gain higher authority), I'm sure he could learn a thing or two from the posters on this board. Hopefully, he doesn't share your attitude.

Fred

Eric.
10-23-2003, 02:33 PM
I'm about 15 years or so younger than Steve, so I can't say first hand about his childhood days.

I have had conversations with his dad(when he had the poolhall) about how Steve developed asa player, when he started, what he did and at what age. Mr. Mizerak had Steve playing well before Steve had his first Geometry class. That's my point.

I think my source is very reliable.


Eric

UbetterRUNout
10-23-2003, 02:33 PM
I guess working and trying to reply to each forum tangles things. I said you don't need a BA just saying that short for bachalors degree. not the MBA ( master of business administration) My bad.

Mike

Fred Agnir
10-23-2003, 02:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr> does that clarify anything for you. Its still physics that will come into play in the end.
<hr /></blockquote> You're trying to clarify what for me? Physics?
Hahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahah ahahahahah... IMO.

Fred

Fred Agnir
10-23-2003, 02:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr> I guess working and trying to reply to each forum tangles things. I said you don't need a BA just saying that short for bachalors degree. not the MBA ( master of business administration) My bad.

Mike <hr /></blockquote>My apologies to the rest of the board. I've had a good day. Seriously.

Mike, it's a BS, not BA in Physics.

Fred &lt;~~~ it's all about the BS

UbetterRUNout
10-23-2003, 02:39 PM
Well maybe then this could fall into the hole of misinterpitation. I go around saying i hate pool that it wastes my time. I say it jokingly to my friends, but others might take it seriously. It could have been a drunking story started after too many coke and jacks. I will from now on repeat only first hand experiances, not stories told behind the sceens of a tournament.

Mike

UbetterRUNout
10-23-2003, 02:46 PM
Yes, Geometry is cast in stone, a right angle will always be 90 degrees. Angle in will always equal angle out. But since we have forces on the ball its not going to always come off the rail at an equal angle, thats where the physics come in. How hard to I have to hit the ball to compress the rubber in the cution to take out enough angle to shorten the angle out to where i need it. How much to i have to spin the cueball to increase the angle the ball will come off the rail?? Isn't that physics? If not, then I guess I don't know the proper meaning...


Mike... meeting time, be back to reply shortly

bolo
10-23-2003, 03:08 PM
Quote
"To this day he still admits to not liking the game much, but when your good at it, you can't just not play. "

Are you kidding, Steve LOVES pool. Until his stroke, he would attend even the smallest local and state tournaments. He is always the last to leave, even if he is out of the tournament he will be right there watching the finals. I have run into him at pool rooms where there were two good players matched up, and he is right there sweating all the action till early hours in the morning.

Quote
"His subject ANGLES, he was a Mathematician, knew angles in and out. His first time playing pool in a bar in Chicago, he ran out. and said that's easy"

He was a history teacher I think 7th grade. I don't know where you are getting your information.

Fred Agnir
10-23-2003, 03:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr> How hard to I have to hit the ball to compress the rubber in the cution to take out enough angle to shorten the angle out to where i need it. ... Isn't that physics? <hr /></blockquote>Physics tells us that the speed of the ball and the compression of the rubber has nothing to do with shortening the angles. That's my problem with you. You spout about physics, yet you don't understand the principles. Nor have you ever really studied them. This might be the time for your fingers to be silent, and let your eyes do some reading.

If you care to learn something, read on.

There are no speed terms in the Physics equation for a cushion (non-linear spring). Tests upon tests have been shown that with a lack of spin (ball sliding), a ball will bank short. You can call it cushion rebound efficiency or cushion restitition. Whatever the case, a sliding ball will bank shorter than the "angle in/angle out" mirror idea. This isn't about lasers and mirrors.

With that in mind, if you bank hard enough so that the object ball is sliding without spin, it will bank short.

Two proofs to consider is that no matter how hard you hit it (within the physical limits of the rails), the ball will only bank as short as its cushion allows. You can't bank shorter by hitting harder and harder and harder. There is a a limit.

The other proof is to bank a ball that's right up near a cushion. No matter what speed, it will bank the same: short.

The proof setup is to set a three ball combination like this:
http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/

START(
%AQ2Y1%BR0Y9%CR7Z8%DL8N2%EM7P1%FK7P1%GK7N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK8M6
%KJ7P7%LJ7N2%MK7Q3%NJ7Q9%OJ7M0%PN4U8%W^4C7%XS5[2
)END

Use a stick and the diamonds to ensure repeatable setup. Lick the contact points to get throw out of the setup, if you wish.

No matter what speed, you'll bank to the same spot (disregard a bad roll). Why? Because there isn't enough distance to have the 3 ball get any kind of spin (forward roll). It will bank as short as the cushion restitution dictates. This is one shot you can setup on any new table to give yourself a quantitative assessment on how short the cushions bank.

Fred

bolo
10-23-2003, 03:15 PM
Quote
"How many out there are ranked in the top 10 in the world?

Uh! 10?

wolfdancer
10-23-2003, 03:39 PM
Fred...MBA..master of billiards algorithms...AN if'n Earl tells you that you has to lern physics........

UbetterRUNout
10-23-2003, 04:31 PM
Hey Slappy,
Quote
"How many out there are ranked in the top 10 in the world?

"How many of you readers of the posts, are ranked in the top ten? I do belive people just look for something to argue about.

UbetterRUNout
10-23-2003, 04:51 PM
SPEED

The main variable to concern yourself with in bank shots is speed---how fast or hard you hit the object ball. As you will quickly see, the harder you hit the ball, the shorter the angle commin off the cushion. The angle into the cushion will therefore not equal the angle coming out.
What many players don't understand is why this is so. There are two reasons. First, with the hard hit, the object ball is not rolling, but skidding off the rubber cushion. Second, because the cushion is rubber, a ball hit into it with force will compress the rubber, causing the object ball to bounce back off the rail shorter, or more shallow, angle. A ball hit too softly into the rail, then, will roll long in comparison to the angle of attack, or angle into the cushion. This is why speed is so critical in bank shots.

"Percision Pool, By Gerry Kanov and Shari Stauhc"

Mike

Fred Agnir
10-23-2003, 05:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr> Second, because the cushion is rubber, a ball hit into it with force will compress the rubber, causing the object ball to bounce back off the rail shorter, or more shallow, angle. A ball hit too softly into the rail, then, will roll long in comparison to the angle of attack, or angle into the cushion. This is why speed is so critical in bank shots.

"Percision Pool, By Gerry Kanov and Shari Stauhc"

Mike
<hr /></blockquote>You can quote all the books you'd like. This part is blatantly wrong. If Gerry or Shari need a Physics lesson, I can point them the right direction. Bob Jewett would be my first choice. He's straightened me out many times before.

I thought I gave a pretty comprehensive reason, which was reason #1 from Gerry and Shari. I also said there is no speed variable, nor cushion deflection variable in the equation for a rebound angle off of a cushion. You would rather "teach me" about physics which you know nothing of. If it helps, print out my post and read it. Reading helps. That's actually how you'd learn Physics.

I also invite you to look for several posts on bank shots and why speed isn't the real reason for "banking short."

Ron Shepard's Bank Posts (http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=bank%20angle%20speed%20&amp;safe=images&amp;ie =UTF-8&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;as_uauthors=shepard&amp;lr=&amp;hl=en)

Jewett's Bank Shot Posts (http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=bank%20angle%20speed%20&amp;safe=images&amp;ie =UTF-8&amp;oe=UTF-8&amp;as_uauthors=jewett&amp;lr=&amp;hl=en)

I warn you. You actually have to read them. The first Shepard post should be enough.

Fred

Popcorn
10-23-2003, 06:49 PM
Miz first hit a ball at the age of 4 and was playing OK by the age of 6. By 8 he was beating older players in his fathers room and by the age of 12 was known state wide as a very good player. He was doing exhibitions at the age of 13 and was New Jersey state champion at 18. He was barred from competing in collagen play because he was already a professional. I have known Steve Mizerak for some 30 years and your information on him is not accurate. The above information is from an essay written by Mizerak about himself when he was in collage. You can find the complete essay in his book "Inside Pocket Billiards" copyright 1973.

wolfdancer
10-23-2003, 07:34 PM
Nice to see someone that knows, set the record straight. Mathametician, angles, forced to play, etc...somebody's pipe dream.
But being barred from "collagen", instead of Collegian, play tournament was a fitting word error, for the corpulent Miz.

Popcorn
10-23-2003, 09:05 PM
I spell real bad, so I always use a spell check. Sometimes I accidentally spell a different word all together so spell check is no help. That one was a funny error though.

Ralph S.
10-24-2003, 03:23 AM
This is too funny...argueing physics with Fred. Dont you know that is what he does for a living? If I am not mistaken he is some kind of engineer, and I dont mean the freight train kind. Hell, I honestly believe Fred could go to work for NASA if he wanted to. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Quit while you can, you are fighting a losing battle. Fred has you way out smarted.

Qtec
10-24-2003, 06:27 AM
Post deleted by Qtec

Fred Agnir
10-24-2003, 07:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>
Do you have a single clue about tournament play? Or do you just have these standard tidbits of barroom advice that doesn't apply? <hr /></blockquote>


Maybe.
<hr /></blockquote> Maybe what? That you have standard tidbits that don't apply (in this situation)? You didn't bother reading my post again, right? Thought so. You might try it sometime.

If you truly had any kind of tournament experience, you'd know what I'm talking about. But you don't, so your experience is more than suspect. I'll take you off the call list.

Fred

eg8r
10-24-2003, 07:49 AM
LOL, calm down. He was not arguing with you, he was answering your question.

[ QUOTE ]
"How many of you readers of the posts, are ranked in the top ten? I do belive people just look for something to argue about. <hr /></blockquote> Also, our ranking does not remove us from having something to say. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r &lt;~~God knows I have said too much /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r
10-24-2003, 07:51 AM
Fred, this reply was hilarious. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I was waiting for you to show up.

eg8r &lt;~~~Not sure Fred was trying to be funny

eg8r
10-24-2003, 07:59 AM
[ QUOTE ]
pro pool players tell you to learn physics and then some crap about an MBA.? An MBA has nothing to do with Physics. But, hey, what do I know about Physics anyway?
<hr /></blockquote> It doesn't appear that UbetterRUNout knows anything about an MBA either. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Fred Agnir
10-24-2003, 08:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote> It doesn't appear that UbetterRUNout knows anything about an MBA either. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote> He must have missed the turn for the Holiday Inn Express.

Fred &lt;~~~ Mother's Basketball Association?

Scott Lee
10-24-2003, 09:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> He was a history teacher I think 7th grade. I don't know where you are getting your information.
<hr /></blockquote>

Actually, you're both incorrect. He was neither a math nor a history teacher. Steve taught high school english in NJ for a few years.

Scott Lee

Fred Agnir
10-24-2003, 09:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
Actually, you're both incorrect. He was neither a math nor a history teacher. Steve taught high school english in NJ for a few years.<hr /></blockquote>

I thought he was music teacher for kindergarten students...

SPetty
10-24-2003, 09:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>Lick the contact points to get throw out of the setup, if you wish.<hr /></blockquote>It's so hard to resist the urge to add some needed levity to this thread by pointing out the obvious that Fred's talking about licking his balls. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott Lee
10-24-2003, 10:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr> I was born and raised in Sheboygan, WI. My father in the early to mid 80's played in Madison, WI. Places like the Green Room, Cue-nique. 2 of his teamates have gone Pro, and have returned to these Pool halls as owners and trainers. Jerry Briesath, and Ron Dobosenski. If theres anyone in the Madison, WI area I would be glad to get you some info to back my info.

Mike <hr /></blockquote>

Mike...You're a little bit skewed here in your "facts". The truth is Jerry Briesath OPENED Cuenique Billiards in downtown Madison in the early 70's (he owned both the business and the building), and ran it until the early 90's, when he sold the biz (not the building). He also OPENED The Green Room in the mid-90's, and owned it for several years, before selling it to one of his FORMER STUDENTS (not a teammate), Ron Dobosenski, who now owns it.
Jerry used to teach at the Green Room, for a short time, until he and Ron had a parting of the ways. Now he teaches back at his old room, Cuenique. However, he and Carol have recently purchased a beautiful new home on a golf course (he is also a golf fanatic...and a good player) in a Del Webb community north of Phoenix, AZ. So it is likely he will be spending most of his time there, although they still own their home on Lake Wisconsin too. This is the real info, straight from Jerry. He happens to be the primary mentor, responsible for helping me learn to teach pool better...not to mention, a personal friend for more than 20 yrs.

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
10-24-2003, 10:10 AM
Fred...That may have been his 'second job'! LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Voodoo Daddy
10-24-2003, 12:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote UbetterRUNout:</font><hr> Steve Mizarak !! His first time playing pool in a bar in Chicago, he ran out. and said thats easy. He never played before that day.

Mike <hr /></blockquote>

Let me go officially on the record to say I don't believe a word of this story.

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Meanwhile...MIZ a born/bred NJ-ite played pool in his dad's pool room in Perth Amboy since his youth. This story is a farce and the ass-clown that wrote it is as well.

Voodoo~~~knows MIZ since the Carter Administration

#### leonard
10-27-2003, 08:11 AM
JER the balls of old never skidded like the Plastics of today. The only person I ever saw benefit from a skid was STeve Mizerak playing against Joe Canton in the 1968 Salt City. Steve missed a long cut shot badly but it skidded into the pocket.####

#### leonard
10-27-2003, 08:34 AM
Jer I have read all the posts and I seem to be the only one to have played Mosconi. Here is what he was worried about, RUNNING 150 and out. Over dinner he confided to me that everytime he plays an exhibition everyone there wants a 150 and out.

I think that pressure could have influenced his sometime bad behavior. I know your going to ask did he run 150 on me.

Well I hit three balls or so in practice and he called me over an said were playing to 200 points.

In the evening match he ran 169 and out to win 200-138. He apologized for having to stop there and go into his trick shots as he had to be in Philley in the morning.####