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Doctor_D
10-23-2003, 08:15 AM
Good morning:

The BCA has a policy of Once a Pro - Always a Pro, even if an individual has not competed professionally, or had derived an income from billiards, over an extended period of time. As I review the names on the list of Professionals, published on the BCA's Once a Pro - Always a Pro listing, I see the names of individuals who I know have not played professionally and/or as a means of earning a living for a considerable period of time.

My question to the CCB is; what do you make of this position and what is your overall opinon. Should an individual, who has not played professionally and has lost their professional classification with a professional players organization be prohibited from playing in tounrmanents?

Dr. D.

SPetty
10-23-2003, 08:23 AM
I've not heard this. I thought you lost your pro status after a period of years.

I played in Vegas on an amateur open women's team with a woman who played as a pro back in the '80s, but she's not a pro now, and was able to play as an amateur in the BCA nationals - open, not masters.

Is this list you refer to on-line somewhere?

Doctor_D
10-23-2003, 08:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> I've not heard this. I thought you lost your pro status after a period of years.

I played in Vegas on an amateur open women's team with a woman who played as a pro back in the '80s, but she's not a pro now, and was able to play as an amateur in the BCA nationals - open, not masters.

Is this list you refer to on-line somewhere? <hr /></blockquote>

Good morning:

You can find the listing on the BCA WebSite as well as the WebSite for the Windy City Open.

www.windycityopen.org/prols.html (http://www.windycityopen.org/prols.html)

www.bca-pool.com/play (http://www.bca-pool.com/play)

Dr. D.

Steve Lipsky
10-23-2003, 08:50 AM
Hi Dr. D.,

I think the ruling is there to protect the tournament directors as much as anyone else. The last thing they need is for a person like Mike Sigel or Jean Balukas to enter an amateur tournament because of their lack of recent pro status. Neither has played in a professional tournament for quite some time; would you want to be the poor tournament director who has to explain to Joe Smith from Oklahoma that he is playing Mike Sigel in the 1st round, and why there is nothing you as TD can do about it?

The rule, in my opinion, stems from the belief that anyone who has attained a pro level can get back to that level with just a little bit of practice. From my experience, this is true. I have seen some top players put a cue down for a year or more, pick it back up, and be back in stroke in a month or less. It's a little scary, actually /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

- Steve

Eric.
10-23-2003, 09:22 AM
Doc D &amp; Steve,

I agree with "Once a Pro, Always a Pro".

I believe the rule was put in specifically for Steve's 'Mike Sigel/Jean Balukas' example. For example, Jean hasn't 'played' in 10-15 years, doenst practice any more, but can walk in, screw together and play at a very competitive level. Right now.

I understand that the rule may not take into account for the Pro's that have had declining health/eyes or some other disability but this is the exception, not the norm.

Another example is Rodney Morris. We all know for a fact that he didn't pick up a stick for aprox 5 years /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif but once he had the chance to play again, he was up to top speed almost overnight!


Eric

Barbara
10-23-2003, 09:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Hi Dr. D.,

I think the ruling is there to protect the tournament directors as much as anyone else. The last thing they need is for a person like Mike Sigel or Jean Balukas to enter an amateur tournament because of their lack of recent pro status. Neither has played in a professional tournament for quite some time; would you want to be the poor tournament director who has to explain to Joe Smith from Oklahoma that he is playing Mike Sigel in the 1st round, and why there is nothing you as TD can do about it?

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Yep! I certainly agree with that!

Barbara

Rich R.
10-23-2003, 09:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> The rule, in my opinion, stems from the belief that anyone who has attained a pro level can get back to that level with just a little bit of practice. From my experience, this is true. I have seen some top players put a cue down for a year or more, pick it back up, and be back in stroke in a month or less. It's a little scary, actually /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.<hr /></blockquote>
I think I have to agree with you Steve.

I once worked in a pool room owned by a pro player.
After a car accident, and whiplash injuries, he was not allowed to play pool for something like 6 or 9 months.

When he finally got the doctors OK to play, he came in, got some balls and took them to his usual practice table, which had shimmed pockets and fast cloth, for that time.
After about ten minutes of playing terrible, for him, he picked up the balls, returned them to the counter and left.

After not playing for another week or two, he came in one day and got a tray of balls and took them to the same table. He commenced to run 160. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Although he has long since retired from active touring as a pro, and has probably lost a lot of his skill due to the natural aging process, I would not want to draw him in the first round, or the last round, of any amateur tournament.

randyg
10-23-2003, 10:11 AM
Good morning Doctor D. I also agree with the BCA Policy. I don't find it perfect but I find it the best....randyg

Popcorn
10-23-2003, 10:45 AM
It is a no win deal for the player and tournament director. If they let him or her play and they play bad and lose, everybody is happy. If they happen to have a flashback and play good, and it can happen even if the player has not been playing at all, everybody is mad at the player and director. It is a no win deal. If you are a former pro or reputedly strong player you have to live with it.

Nostroke
10-23-2003, 11:14 AM
Somebody tell the BCA that Tony Ellin has been dead a number of years. I didnt examine the list that closely but i did note the absence of Tony Watson for one.

Chris Cass
10-23-2003, 11:55 AM
Hi Dr. D,

The thing that gets to me is, in Vegas once the BCA declares a person as a Master player if they go 2 and out for 2 yrs straight their status returns to an Open player. Now, the Open has like 1800 players with atleast 1/3rd of the field with Masters.

In other words one can dump for 2 yrs in a row and come to the Open with a crack Master team in the Open. How's that for thinking? Now, I came to feel it's better to be a Master player because there's less players and more money. Go figure?

Then, you have the Elite players that are picked to play in the pro event. They, say you must play. Well, in order for you to play the pro event by force, the BCA has to pay the $500. entry fee. The player gets back like $300. even if they're 2 and out or something. So, they lose and hello, lets take the cash from all the amateur tourneys that refuse to let the pros play. That's where all the money is.

Can anyone explain this to me? Have I got this wrong? Also, how come a pool room owner/ league operator deem a player a Master level at state but Vegas lets a new person in at Open status?

Great to hear from you again Dr. D.

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

8BallChump
10-23-2003, 08:45 PM
Just a couple of questions/comments (LONG ONES) to address if you are using the BCA "once a pro - always a pro" list.....

1. What do you do with all of the players who played on the tour(s)at one time or another yet never played up to par for the "professional" level? In other words, what about those players who - of their own choosing - SUPPORTED their sport by paying entry fees, sanction fees, etc. for many tournaments KNOWING that they did not have a chance to get even (or even win a match!)? Are you now going to tell them that BECAUSE they supported their sport that now they cannot even enjoy playing in some smaller events that they may/may not be able to do well in? That doesn't seem like a proper "thank you".... for their support. I think (no... I know..) that sometimes the "Pro" organizations forget who actually BUILT them. Without the semi-pro's, amateur's and professional wannabe's/has beens.... there wouldn't be enough players to fill either a women's or men's professional event. On top of that... if you told a player that if they played in 1 or 2 professional events and they actually placed high enough to recover SOME of their money... then they would be considered professionals... not that many would take the chance. After all, it is about getting to play pool... not about NOT getting to play!

2. By most sports standards, the definition of a Professional player is someone who earns their living by playing pool or at the very least attempts to. In most sports Professional play for money and Amateurs play for Trophies. I am quite sure that it would be difficult to get 5000 amateurs to fly to Vegas to play in a tournament where they win a trophy, but that would truly be an Amatuer event. Maybe that is the way to go. Tell everyone that wants to play for money that they must be Professionals and everyone else is an amateur? To be an amateur you must.... drive 200 miles, get 2 nights hotel, eat 6-8 meals, pay your entry fee, your quarters or greens fee....and collect your trophy when you are done. Is this what America's pool players want? That is an amateur in most sports. I believe that if we PAID our professionals what the other sports make maybe more players would be willing to turn pro. Here's what you have to do currently to be a pro...

First of all, you have to "qualify" for a spot on some tours or be invited to others. Next you have to pay a $500 or more entry fee, fly across the country ($300), stay in a $100 night room ($400), eat 12-15 meals out ($200) and beat the top 48-64 players in the world....When you finish in the top half you get excited as you collect your check for oh, about 1/2 of what you have invested! THEN you have to pay your sanction fee for that tour out of that... (another $100-$300).... and they expect you to ONLY play in their events or other sanctioned events from then on..... so now you only get to play in 4-7 events a year. Again... not playing much pool....

3. In what other sport can you NOT be a member of a tour or organization and have that tour/organization be in total control of your destiny? In MLB for instance... when a player plays for a professional team for years and has success only to falter or become injured later, they send him down to the "minor" leagues. He is then a semi-pro player (PLEASE DON'T QUOTE ME ON THE LEGALITIES - THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE!). He is earning less pay and playing with lesser players than he did when he was a "major" leaguer... If he then leaves the MLB and goes to play on the "Po-Dunk" circuit down in BFE.... MLB doesn't follow him and say to the "Po-Dunk" league that he can't play with them (Po-Dunk) because they (MLB) still consider him to be a professional player. For baseball players, once they "retire" or leave the Major/Minor leagues (i.e.. MLB is no longer PAYING them to play), they gain control over what they choose to do and where, if at all, they choose to play. (I KNOW... THIS IS ALL ASSUMING THAT A PLAYER IS NOT CURRENTLY UNDER CONTRACT WITH A TEAM!)

Anyway.... just one side of the coin. Mine.

almer
10-23-2003, 08:50 PM
All you need to look at is who won the open in BCA in vegas the last 2 years and you know the system is kind of flawed.Either 1 of these players will play most pro for money,most open players would not play these guys even with a big spot.just an observation almer

JPB
10-23-2003, 09:13 PM
The BCA is right and is not strict enough. The distinction between pro and amateur is meaningless now. Ideally pool would just start over. Make a list of obvious pros now and allow anybody else to be an amateur. But taking a dime of prize money in a tournament should make you a pro. Actually, playing in a tourn. that offeres prize money should strip you of amateur status, unless you renounce the right to prize money before playing IMO. As one poster pointed out, most pool players are uncomfortable with that. So I guess it won't happen. IMO if you have played in a tourn that has offered prize money of any sort you are not an amateur. My guess is that none of us are amateurs because all the tournaments pay money. Failing that, I think tourns should be completely open.


I imagine about 0% of the pool players would agree with me tho. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

8BallChump
10-24-2003, 02:18 AM
Let's think about this.... take figure skating for instance. Your BEST figure skaters at any one time are not professionals, they are amateurs. They have not turned pro. They are waiting to turn pro AFTER they compete in the amateur events like the Olympics. Their PROFESSIONAL organization NOR their AMATEUR organization FORCES them to become pro's... it is a CHOICE that they make. When they are ready to earn a LIVING at that sport, then they turn PRO. They are not "forced out".

How would you like to be told that you must either 1) QUIT playing the game that you have supported for possibly most of your adult life and have trained so hard for, or 2) be FORCED to put up $1500 to $2000 PER TOURNAMENT for expenses (for the most part, without the ability to get it back!), and by doing so put your FINANCIAL SECURITY not only for yourself but for YOUR FAMILY in jeopardy. All because someone "CONSIDERS" you a pro. They think that they have the right OR the knowledge to tell you where they THINK that you should compete. Are those people going to pay YOUR BILLS when you come home empty handed? Don't think so. MOST (not all) of the people who are complaining about these "pro's" have NEVER tried to turn pro. They don't understand the repercusions of what they are saying.

After all.... you are forgeting about all of the people who ARE NOT ROAD PLAYERS or such that are going to get or who ARE caught in this situations. These are people who have supported this sport, thru playing tournaments and leagues, promoting tournaments and leagues, owning or working in rooms, paying LOTS AND LOTS of table time to their local rooms, etc.... this is NOT just a bunch of road players. Some yes... but not all and you guys sometimes forget that.

After all..... let's throw a pool tournament and NOT invite the pool players! Let's let someone learn how to play pool, pay their table time, study hard... and then tell them they can't play.. they MUST turn pro and spend more $$. Maybe the problem is that the "open" and or "master" players, if they are going to compete at some of these tournaments need to raise THEIR game, instead of trying to weaken the fields (both in quality and QUANTITY) of the players who have proven to support the sport. After all, we can't customize a field so that it is weak enough for Joe Blow to win.

Don't want to sound harsh, just my humble opinion.

Jimmy B
10-24-2003, 03:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> Another example is Rodney Morris. We all know for a fact that he didn't pick up a stick for aprox 5 years /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Eric, do we really know this? I mean has anyone here ever asked him? I am sure some jails have pool tables in them, maybe they don't have the best equipment, maybe a breakaway cue or something, but how can you be sure he didn't have 5 years with nothing but time to practice?
JB

SRpool
10-24-2003, 03:26 AM
I have heard a little about this topic in the past few weeks. I myself, just becoming a pro in the past few months, I thought you kept your pro status for something like 5 years after you play your last tournament. Turns out....I am wrong. I guess a few years ago the tour made the policy..once a pro always a pro. Tammie Jones, who now makes quite a living off amatuer tournaments was the last woman to have her pro status lifted (so I hear)

I agree that there is some punishment in becoming a pro. Some tournaments are taken away and yes, you only make a small part of your money back and there are not many tournmaents to play in. I think it is a personal choice whether you want to say you are a pro or not.

I don't know if I agree with the policy. Speaking from a personal point of view...what happens if I decide I am going to retire from playing in pro tournaments and start a family? Then I decide after a few years that one weekend there is a big tournament close to home and I want to pick up a cue again. (Clearly, I will not be playing the way I am at my peak.) Because I was a pro years earlier....I cannot play in this tournament. That is ridiculous.

I may see some point to once a pro always a pro if the pay was more like other professional sports. But, I will not be retiring anytime soon off of my tournament winnings. The smaller tournaments that I am allowed to play in help support being a professional.

anyway..that is just my opinion.

sarah

CarolNYC
10-24-2003, 03:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think it is a personal choice whether you want to say you are a pro or not.
<hr /></blockquote>

YEP!
[ QUOTE ]
Clearly, I will not be playing the way I am at my peak <hr /></blockquote>

Yep, again-
Hey Sarah,
You are a perfect example of the new,young,talented, very strong player-Steve mentioned that a pro could come back and get back to top play in their game,but, it could also work the other way around- a pro could comeback and have to work very hard to get their game back because of the amount of talent and caliber of play TODAY! Maybe when they became pro, there wasnt all this talent,ya know?
And just think of all those frequent flyer miles we rack up:):):):)
See ya soon!
Carol~will be flying first class for the price of economy:):):):):):) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

bluewolf
10-24-2003, 06:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JPB:</font><hr> But taking a dime of prize money in a tournament should make you a pro. Actually, playing in a tourn. that offeres prize money should strip you of amateur status, unless you renounce the right to prize money before playing IMO. As one poster pointed out, most pool players are uncomfortable with that. So I guess it won't happen. IMO if you have played in a tourn that has offered prize money of any sort you are not an amateur. <hr /></blockquote>

If an inexperienced player, who is an intermediate player at best enters one of these open tournaments like facon, cat etc, imo no way does that make them a pro.

Somebody like me and others too will get experience at competition, learn things from the other players but no way that makes these intermediate players a pro. Many of these players are not trying to be anything close to a pro, just having fun playing pool and getting competition.

I even have met people who have played in women's tournaments where money is payed because they are more comfortable playing with women. These women were much weaker than the top of the field. They were not expecting to win,but are happy if they win a match or too or even a few games and in general are just doing this to have fun.

IMO, pro means the person makes their living at pool, even if they have to supplement that somewhat, they are attempting to make their living that way.

Laura

jjinfla
10-24-2003, 06:52 AM
I see that the men's list has not been updated in over a year and the women's list since 2/03.

I think the idea of the BCA listing who they deem eligible to play in BCA tournaments is sound, but perhaps might just need a little tweeking. Maybe where a player listed as a pro can appeal to the BCA to have themselves delisted from pro status. Of course this person would have to show that he/she has dropped in their level of play to the extent that they can no longer compete in pro tournaments. Not just that they don't want to compete against the pros anymore. But if this person would still be a favorite against 95% of the amateurs then the request should be denied.

Since the pros have a list of who can compete in pro tournaments I see nothing wrong with the BCA having a list as to who can compete in their Amateur tournaments.

And can a person be listed as a pro just because he is the best around but does not compete in pro tournaments?

Jake

pooltchr
10-24-2003, 07:08 AM
Everyone has a different idea of what defines a "pro". The BCA has their list. The APA says if more than half of your income comes from playing pool, you are a pro. The problem here is there is no way to keep up with winnings. Major tournaments keep records, but what about all the weekly events all over the country? What about some regional tours that allow players to use a false name? (OMG!!! Tell me this doesn't happen!!!)
Until there is a universal standard rating system for pool players, this question can not be resolved. I know players who can play even with some of the top pros, but since they rarely enter the big tournaments, don't show up on the radar. There are road players who don't enter tournaments because they don't want it known how good they can play. They want to be able to get the money games. How do you come up with a fair rating system for pool? I don't know the answer, but I sure wish someone smarter than I would figure it out.

Eric.
10-24-2003, 08:00 AM
Jimbo,

I don't know for sure. Then again, how many jails have you heard of that have easily accessible weapons i.e. billiard balls and sticks?


Eric

Steve Lipsky
10-24-2003, 08:08 AM
8BallChump wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
After all.... you are forgeting about all of the people who ARE NOT ROAD PLAYERS or such that are going to get or who ARE caught in this situations. These are people who have supported this sport, thru playing tournaments and leagues, promoting tournaments and leagues, owning or working in rooms, paying LOTS AND LOTS of table time to their local rooms, etc.... <hr /></blockquote>

Can you name one pro who has "backdoored" into this status, as you refer to above? I have never heard of a player, who by participating in of all things a league, was thrust into the pro ranks.

Your post confused me. The first three paragraphs made me nuts and then I agreed entirely with your closing.

- Steve

Perk
10-24-2003, 08:26 AM
Hmmm,

Well, a friend of mine recently returned from Prison I believe it was in Stanton, or Jackson Michigan, and they had a pool table 8'. He said he played all the time. Some guy named "Chainsaw" was the main prison player.

Cant think that his prison was the only one with a table/cuesticks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Chris in NC
10-24-2003, 08:54 AM
Dr. D, instead of a cut and dry rule, I think it should be determined on a case by case basis by the BCA or whomever, depending on the tournament performance history of the player in question.

For instance for someone who has not had much success on the pro level, I wouldn't think it should be too hard for them to get back their status as an amateur.

For someone who has experienced considerable success on the pro level, I think it should be much harder and should depend on the reasons and motivations of the player as to why they wish to re-attain their amateur status.

The PGA / USGA has to deal with this issue much moreso than in pool. For golfers, it's much more important an issue - as there is considerable prizes available (not to mention prestige) in tournaments on the amateur level at many events in comparison to pool tournaments. I believe the PGA / USGA has a set time frame (like perhaps 2 years of inactivity) from the time of filing an application in order for a player to earn back their full amateur status.

I can't see where this would really be an issue for a pool player. Most tournaments are open to anyone, and most tournament directors / promoters are thrilled to have pro level players enter their tournaments for the added attention it brings.

Dr. D, just curious as to what your bringing up this question pertains to and why it is so important for a particular player to get back their amateur status? - Chris in NC

Eric.
10-24-2003, 08:55 AM
Well Perk, like I said, I don't know and can't imagine why you would want to put weapons in the hands of convicted felons. Maybe in the lower security prisons, they do have pool tables in a separate room that is used under supervision, but could you imagine if it was in the open where someone could grab a billiard ball and bash someone elses teeth out at any moment?

I do know for a fact that East Coast Prison and Rikers Island in NJ and NY do NOT have pool tables (they are also Max Prisons). They are dangerous enough without introducing weapons. In East Coast(fromerly Rahway)there was a guy "Mudman" who got into it with another inmate in for murder. The other guy killed "Mudman" with his bare hands in the courtyard. According to my buddy who works there, Mudman was almost unrecognizable. That's without weapons. God forbid the other guy had something more dangerous like a Dixie cup or Tissue or something like that...


Eric

John in NH
10-24-2003, 09:23 AM
Hi Dr D,

It's the only choice to make given the circumstances, otherwise all of the older professionals would be back playing amateur pool for money.

It's the cash. In every sport (except pool) amateurs and professionals are separated by the money, some examples are as follows: College sports, Ice sports, etc., the winners receive trophy's, sometimes expenses are paid, in amateur golf winners receive pro shop credit which translates into merchandise paid out with the pro shop receiving 50% profit in most cases, often merchandise which has not been moving is given out to the winners.

The point is that pool organizations such as the BCA, UPA, WPBA, etc., are going about this all wrong, they should be promoting all types of tournaments for professionals and amateurs with the professionals receiving the cash, the amateurs receiving trophy's and pool related merchandise.

Until the structure of pool changes I'm afraid that pool as we know it will continue to stagnate.

Just my opinion,

John

Scott Lee
10-24-2003, 09:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> Jimbo,

I don't know for sure. Then again, how many jails have you heard of that have easily accessible weapons i.e. billiard balls and sticks?


Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Actually Eric, MOST prisons have at least one pool table, that is in a commom area for the prisoners to use on a daily basis. Not having visited a prison myself, one of my mentors, Jack White, did pro bono exhibitions at several prisons, including the Federal Penetentiary at Leavenworth, KS. So...it is likely that Rocket Rodney didn't have to lay off completely while serving his sentence.

Scott Lee

Sid_Vicious
10-24-2003, 09:36 AM
I am very surprised at this factoid. I always felt that cue sticks would be far too pointed and dangerous, hopefully these setups are in some section less than the violent criminals cuz somebody would surely "get their oil checked" with one soon or later, OUCH! sid

#### leonard
10-24-2003, 10:02 AM
Steve I want to tell you this story. I let myself get screwed out owning the Albany Golden Cue in 1971.

Now there isn't many companies looking to hire ex poolroom people so I got work on the docks in Albany unloading Chiquita Bananas, then to loading liquor for Schenely.

It was 1974 and I haven't played pool in 3 years when we went on strike and after doing my picket line duty. The guys wanted to go to the Cue to play pool. On my first shot I ran 94 balls and the fellow I was playing with a former customer when I ran the cue said I hate you. I play all the time and never ran 50 balls you haven't played in 3 years and on your first shot you run 94 balls.
Move ahead 6 months and I have dream that I win the US Open. The next day I get a call from a friend that they are holding a US Open qualifer in Newburgh NY, then I tell him about the dream,, maybe it will happen. I went to the poolroom in Troy Friday morning and practiced for 3 hours after working 13 hours the night before. Drove to Newburgh Saturday and won the qualifer beating Pat Fleming,Larry Liscotti,Earl Herring and a couple of players who names escape me.

When it came time for the tourney I got sick on Friday morning and never hit a ball till I arrived in Chicago Sunday night. The Brunswick staff didn't have the Gold Crown pooltables assembled and were having trouble attaching the sides of the table. After watching them for nearly two hours, I went into the bathroom got a bar of soap, wet it and came out and went over to the manager told him watch me. I soaped the metal hinges and proceeded to put the sides on by myself. They had never seen the soap trick before. Then the tables finally got put together. Still no practice till just before game time which I lost to Petey Margo 150 to 128 and then lost to Irving Crane 150 108. That ended the dream. ####

Scott Lee
10-24-2003, 10:08 AM
Sid...Not very many prisoners are too fond of solitary. That's where they put ya, when you cause trouble...not to mention adding time to your sentence. Lifers probably don't care, but NOBODY likes solitary confinement...at least not for long!

Scott

Nostroke
10-24-2003, 10:28 AM
I would expect them at some federal prisons but im doubting that every State or County prison has one. I bought for a County Prison and a County Jail (there is a difference) and they didnt have a table or anything else with that type of weapon potential.

Steve Lipsky
10-24-2003, 10:46 AM
Great story, ####. That's a pretty brutal draw for the US Open, too. I mean, no draw is easy, but Crane in the first round of the loser's side??

- Steve

jjinfla
10-24-2003, 11:40 AM
And who put Crane on the loser's side?

jjinfla
10-24-2003, 11:50 AM
I would imagine that Federal Pens not only have pool tables but probably GC's or Diamonds. After all politicians, bankers, accountants, etc, like to be treated right.

As for worrying about a cue stick or ball being used as a weapon I think there is more concern about items in the wood or machine shops. Or how about the weight rooms?

Jake

#### leonard
10-24-2003, 12:57 PM
Steve it was such a long story if I had the games over today I might have protested my loss to Margo. In the Open you only got to hit your lag on the table. I would lose the lag and if I won I would break. I practiced the opening lag so much that I felt I had the advantage playing the opening safety especially on new cloth.

I opened the match with a run of 27 and missed the key ball in the right hand corner short but I didn't scratch in the side pocket which I felt I would do. The next time I got to the table I ran another 30 or so then I shot a straight in shot into the left corner pocket with a soft stroke and the object ball hit the first diamond on the long rail. My referree Red Jones said to me I am going to report this table when the game is over.

Some would say it the same table for each but Margo was a driller and I soft stroked the balls, playing straight rail billiards by controlling object balls. I'll post on Irvs game later.####

Rod
10-24-2003, 01:56 PM
Hi Dr. D.,

I think that should be handled on an individual basis. It also depends on what tournament/s. I don't think it is a clear cut case of yes or no. Even in a lower rank, like semi pro, once you obtain a playing status or ranking it just seems to stay with you. Not playing, is not an excuse but having a leg or arm fall off might help. JK, but it's tough being lowered.


Rod

eieio59
10-25-2003, 03:00 PM
I'm gonna try this again (I don't know where my last one went!)

Normally I don't read/respond to these things, but someone brought this to my attention this weekend.

Hi Sarah! This is Tammie. I know that you, of all people.... know how hard it is to 'get by' out there and you also know the repercusions of becoming a better player. I no longer run the roads, so the only time I get to play is when there is a tournament that I can go to. For the past few years this has been only about 6-8 events a year. Everyone thinks that I "earn a living" playing pool. Let's take a look at that thought. Here are my results from the events that I have played in this year (to-date). I have also included THE EXPENSES for those events.

1. WINDY CITY OPEN (8BALL 1100) (9ball $500) EXPENSES "ROOM, ENTRIES, QUARTERS, GAS" $600

2. BCA (VEGAS) 2nd - 8BALL $3500 VNEA (Vegas) 8-ball (2nd $1500) 9-ball (1st $1250) EXPENSES:
AIR FOR ME $250
AIR FOR CHILD $250
AIR FOR SITTER $250
HOTEL FOR 23 DAYS $995 (=$65*23=$1495 - $500 IN COMPS)
ENTRY FEES $700
QUARTERS $200
MEALS FOR 3 FOR 23 DAYS $900
"$3,545 "

3. MIDWEST OPEN (1st 9BALL 650) (1st 8ball $1500)
EXPENSES: GAS $75
HOTEL FOR 4 NIGHTS $400
ENTRIES $100
DOLLARS $60
MEALS $200
CHILD CARE $250
"$1,085 "

TOTAL WINNINGS FOR YEAR $10,000 TOTAL EXPENSES $5230

NET EARNINGS FOR YEAR TO DATE $4770.

My mortgage payments for one year are $6,132. I can't even pay my rent?.. And this is with me WINNING or coming in"
2nd in the events that I did play in?. Can you imagine what I would lose if I didn't??

I guess the gest of what I am saying is that ANYONE who thinks that you can EARN A LIVING playing this game at this level (at any level other than your extreme top pro') is crazy.

I like to think that for all of my hard work (practice, $$ spent on table time, cues, etc..... league directing, tournament directing, promoting pool....), all of the effort I put into this game, that I could play in at least a few events a year (win them, OR not) and not have to endure so much grief over being a "professional". I DO NOT EARN A LIVING PLAYING POOL. NEVER HAVE. I have never earned even close to the poverty level income that would be necessary to live.

I have played professionally, yes. I have done well professionally, yes. The last year I played on tour (1993/1994) I played in 7 events... finished 5th in 4 events, 7th in 1, 9th in 1 and lower in the other. I LOST $3,500 AND fell 2 spots in the rankings. This was before the foreign players began playing full time on the tour. I HIGHLY doubt (and I readily ackowledge) that I could not be as competitive now as I was then. So I would be looking at a far more substantial loss if I were to play pro. How can someone else dictate to me what I should or shouldn't do with my own finances? How can they tell me (a long-time supporter of pool) that I no longer have a place to play in pool? I either play with the pro's or don't play at all.... WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR THIS? SPONSORS?? I'm sorry, but I don't play like Allison Fisher and I don't look like Jeanette Lee. For those of you who don't know me.... I am old, fat and ugly and don't think that I would be much (and they seem to think so too...)use to a sponsor. I have tried to have sponsors in the past to no avail. I am now 45 years old and just want to be left alone so that I can play in 6-8 events per year without RISKING BANKRUPTCY.

As far as the competition.... maybe the answer is to make more divisions and pay them accordingly SO THAT YOU CAN ALLOW MORE PLAYERS TO PLAY. Have professionals(those that CHOOSE to be professionals) and let them play for BIG PURSES (where you get at least good odds on your money); semi-pro's (those that CHOOSE to be semi-pro's) and pay them solid purses, but that are less than pro purses.... and then amateurs (no $$, just trophies.. like other sports)... Then let's see who plays where. If Allison Fisher would be satisfied with playing events where she gets 3-1 on her money if she wins, then let her play semi-pro... if she wants to win more she must play professionally. (Just using Allison as an example because she is well known). There would be NO crossing over. You play where you choose to play.

If we did that then I guarantee that we would have many new faces in the winners circles because players that haev been told that they mUST play pro or cannot play in lower events would then be able to play and we would go from having 50 women in Masters out in vegas to having 100. We could also then afford to let the women who have been made to play in Masters Divisions but who are definitely open players - go back and play in their proper division as well.

I SAY.... LET EVERYBODY PLAY! Just make them choose where they want to play and pay them accordingly.

Tom_In_Cincy
10-25-2003, 06:45 PM
Dr. D.

The BCA is over rated. The BCA's opinion is just that, an opinion. They are a money making org that doesn't sanction anything except their own league (which competes with other pool leagues), a yearly tournament (which competes with other pool tournaments) and a trade show (which is not even the best trade show for pool.)

IMO, TDs and Leagues will determine if they want pros to play or NOT.

Personally, I don't have a problem at all with anyone wanting to play in an OPEN tournament.

If the tournament isn't open (like for B palyers only) or for women only. I'm ok with that also.

Like I said, the BCA is over rated.

Doctor_D
10-28-2003, 07:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> Good morning Doctor D. I also agree with the BCA Policy. I don't find it perfect but I find it the best....randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Good morning Randy:

How is it then that the BCA; a Trade and Amateur Organization, can classify individuals as professionals when neither the WPBA or the UPA have classified the individual as a professional?

Dr. D.

Alfie
10-28-2003, 01:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Doctor_D:</font><hr> How is it then that the BCA; a Trade and Amateur Organization, can classify individuals as professionals when neither the WPBA or the UPA have classified the individual as a professional? <hr /></blockquote>Dr. D, I am often obtuse. Will you explain this question a bit more, because on the surface it looks a bit wacky.

Steve Lipsky
10-28-2003, 01:38 PM
I think she is saying that there are examples of players who are not considered a "pro" by the WPBA or the UPA, but are on the PRO list on the BCA website.

An example of this might be a guy like Marco Marquez, or a woman like Pat Tipton.

I think it's a valid question. But I suppose you just have to look at the BCA Pro list as the "Just Too Good To Be Called Amateur" list.

- Steve

nAz
10-28-2003, 03:41 PM
I do not see Billy Billings (spelling?) name on the womens list. I know she use to play way back and i thought she was a pro.

Alfie
10-30-2003, 01:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> I think she is saying that there are examples of players who are not considered a "pro" by the WPBA or the UPA, but are on the PRO list on the BCA website.

An example of this might be a guy like Marco Marquez, or a woman like Pat Tipton.

I think it's a valid question. But I suppose you just have to look at the BCA Pro list as the "Just Too Good To Be Called Amateur" list.

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>I'm sure the BCA is just protecting their "not good enough to be a pro" clientele. They have a right to do this. The APA does a similar thing.
http://www.poolplayers.com/tmanual.pdf
See 32. NO PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS ALLOWED on page 40.

IMO, BCA would have a real mess if they start making exceptions, you know, the "why him and not me" stuff. And they are probably afraid of all those old pros sandbagging the skills test. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TxArmyWife
10-30-2003, 04:22 PM
If the BCA is going to say once a pro, always a pro...why do they not have their facts straight when it comes to posting the pro list?

I have the WPBA archives of ALL women who played professionally from the time the WPBA became the governing body of professional female billiards players. Where does the BCA get off determining who was pro? Their list is absolutely absurd! Are they basing this list on pros who played in BCA events and placed in half the field? I'm at a loss here as to why some ladies are referred as pro status and others are not. IMO, if you are going to blackball a player from playing sanctioned BCA events, at least be consistent &amp; FAIR in judging who is or was a pro.

SRpool
10-31-2003, 02:23 AM
I completely agree. The WPBA and the BCA have completely different pro listings. You have to achieve alot to become a pro in WPBA standards but it doesnt seem like it takes much to become a pro and stay a pro in BCA standards.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-31-2003, 08:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
Actually Eric, MOST prisons have at least one pool table, that is in a commom area for the prisoners to use on a daily basis. Not having visited a prison myself, one of my mentors, Jack White, did pro bono exhibitions at several prisons, including the Federal Penetentiary at Leavenworth, KS. So...it is likely that Rocket Rodney didn't have to lay off completely while serving his sentence.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Mr. Rodney Morris was interviewed in the May P &amp; B. When asked what he did in prison he said he read a lot of books, played chess, scrabble, and took a personal trainer course. He did not mention pool.

He was in a federal prison for the last 2 years. I'm surprised he didn't have some accesss to a table.

nAz
10-31-2003, 02:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> I do not see Billy Billings (spelling?) name on the womens list. I know she use to play way back and i thought she was a pro. <hr /></blockquote>

I asked Jean Balukas about Billings (spelling) and she told me that she was in the WPBA from the very start and was surprised to find that she was not mentioned on the "list".
She was also surprised to hear that her own name was on that list, go figure.

Bob C
10-31-2003, 05:10 PM
Also Boston Shorty (Larry Johnson).