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Sally
10-23-2003, 10:45 AM
There is a press release on "The Players Tournament I" from Right Action Management that just came in that might be of interest to anyone with questions on the "Million Dollar Tournament." Click here (http://www.insidepool.com/) for more info.

bolo
10-23-2003, 11:27 AM
What a stupid, condescending, insulting letter. Their whole idea is just a big ring game for the entry fees that they collect. Not only is there nothing added, they don't even pay back 100% of the entry collected. Assuming they were lucky enough to get a full field, they are cutting $1,167,000 right off the top for themselves. Not to mention the giant kick backs they will be getting from the hotels in Vegas, vendor fees and so on. That is how Vegas works. Why do you think all the pool leagues go there. What a joke. Then in their pitch to gain respect and support, they insult the very ones they are appealing to, basically calling all pool players a bunch of broke dead beats. When ever I hear the term escrow account as a way to guarantee honestly, I get nervous. That means nothing. If anyone has sent them an entry fee, and I can't imagine who would have, I think they should be asking for it back real quick.

snipershot
10-23-2003, 11:48 AM
Wow! This whole idea was obviously not gonna happen from the beginning, now that RAM has slapped pool players around the world they can cancel any plans they have for being seriously involved in the industry. Just because somebody doesn't have $10,000 laying around to throw into a tournament being played on shitty little 7ft tables doesn't mean their broke.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-23-2003, 11:53 AM
They claim to be "successful business people". I've never seen any successful business write anything like that /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Only now are they arranging for Diamond to hold the entry fees. They should have known that players were not going to just send them $10,000 on faith. Geez...

Actually I hope they pull it off. It would be good publicity for the game. But I'm not optimistic.

Steve Lipsky
10-23-2003, 12:07 PM
Yeah, that's a pretty silly letter. Everybody posting before me has made some nice points.

The general tone of the release belies a company which at the very least does not have a public relations officer (usually a bad sign for an event this big). A PR officer's job would be to take this man's ventings (whether legitimate or not) and phrase it in a more business-friendly way.

I believe that this guy is indeed very frustrated. It's not all our fault, however. Had his company done any type of research, they would have found:

1) Regulation-size equipment is a must;
2) A double-elimination format is a must;
3) A reasonable entry fee is a must;
4) A race of reasonable length is a must;
5) Added money attracts the players

Right Action Management did none of the above. Truthfully, they did none of the above. That's inexcusable.

- Steve

pooltchr
10-23-2003, 12:14 PM
I have to agree, especially with number 3. Wouldn't they be more likely to find 2000 players with a grand to spend than 200 with 10g's?

Scott Lee
10-23-2003, 12:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote snipershot:</font><hr> Wow! This whole idea was obviously not gonna happen from the beginning, now that RAM has slapped pool players around the world they can cancel any plans they have for being seriously involved in the industry. Just because somebody doesn't have $10,000 laying around to throw into a tournament being played on shitty little 7ft tables doesn't mean their broke. <hr /></blockquote>

Snipershot...EXCUSE ME? I take offense at you calling the Diamond Smart Table "shitty". The 7' foot tables are manufactured to very exacting standards (and play basically the same as the 9' version Smart Table). Were this tournament being played on Valley barboxes, I would agree with you. However, the new association with Diamond has put new credibility into this event, imo.

Bolo...Nowhere in the article does it call professional or amateur poolplayers "deadbeats". It does say, quite accurately, imo, that most top level poolplayers are frequently, or mostly broke. That is true, as most pro, or aspiring pro players CHOOSE not to have a real job, or a real income. The smart pros do something else to make their living, so that they can continue to pursue their passion without detriment to themselves, or others in their lives.

I think the problem here is that RAM isn't looking at this with a good perspective. They want to stage the "biggest event in pool history", which is an admirable and daunting task. However, I believe that they could do that by making the top prize just $500,000 (which would still be EIGHT times the largest tournament first place purse ever), and take the other half million and redistribute it among the other 63 places to be paid (according to their press release). Then, next year they might be able to do the full million. If it were me, I would sure want to make more than 10% on my entry fee by winning my first two rounds of a single elimination tournament (and thereby getting "in the money")! Make the last place money $15K, and you might have some takers.

I was one of the first here to "poo poo" this event, as sham, and impossible to pull off. After reading more about it, and understanding their viewpoint (from the perspective of the World Series of Poker, etc), I think they have the potential to provide a serious impact on professional tournament pool. A $10K entry fee is very extreme, imo, but there are some who would take a shot at it. They say they have 100+ entries (half of which may be only the $1000 deposit), and need another 100 fully paid within a week.
If they restructure their prize payout, they could possibly do it. I'm all for giving them the chance. BTW, I agree with you about the profit, hotel kickbacks, etc...and don't forget about the "drop" from the tables. You have to figure a buck per game, with a minimum $21, and maximum $41 per match, that's a heck of a return on the tables. Makes you wonder why they want it to be single elimination, rather than double elimination. That, in itself, would probably make more people a little more at ease to pony up that kind of front money.

Scott Lee /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Kato
10-23-2003, 12:31 PM
I loved the part about all 100 million pool players in the world as being broke. Yes I'm broke and no I'm not plunking down 10 grand. He's assuming that there are 100 million pool players that don't have jobs and are always busted. Sure, I'll send a company I've never heard of a bunch of bread.

Kato~~~wishes a tourament like this could happen.

Nostroke
10-23-2003, 12:52 PM
If pool players are broke now, What would happen if all tournaments had no added money and returned just 80% of the entry fees to the players in prize money? Duuuuh?

It was a ridiculous idea and there is no way they have 100 entries paid now either!

bolo
10-23-2003, 12:58 PM
Quote
"I was one of the first here to "poo poo" this event, as sham, and impossible to pull off."

What make you think your first impression now was wrong? This thing it not going to happen and players that put up their money will be lucky to get it back. If their impression is, that all pool players are broke, then where is the $10,000 to come from? At best it would be a group of backers for the player, in which case the player will still end up with little. In the $10,000 buy in poker tournaments they want to emulate, a large number of them won their way in through satellite tournaments with $100. entry fees. If you remember the old Miller Beer world series of tavern pool, in the early 80s? It had the right idea the way it was done. I played in Vegas in two of those after winning the state regional tournaments. It was a lot of fun and my investment was something like $35.00. I got my paid for trip to Vegas and managed to win a few thousand in the tournament. No bad, I had a shot to win $25,000 for a $35.00 investment. Back to the original point, if they think this letter is the way to get this thing back on track, I am even more skeptical of their ability to pull it off.

DoomCue
10-23-2003, 01:21 PM
I have to agree with most of what Scott said. It's apparent, especially from some of the responses I've read in this thread, pool will never be a big time game. I'm just about ready to give up on that. Everything that has the potential to be good for the sport is instantly shot down, before it's even given a chance. This tournament has been ripped from the start due to people assuming it's a scam, and reticence from players to spend the money on the entry fee. How could the World Series of Poker have become so popular if somebody hadn't stepped up and put their balls on the line to stage it and get it televised? Or how about the Outdoor Games (I truly believe that's some of the dumbest stuff I've ever seen, but somebody's making money off it), or golf, or the X-Games, or bowling, etc? Some of those poker tournaments have $10,000 entry fees, nobody's complaining about that. Somebody tries to do that for pool, though, and suddenly, it's a scam, it's about kickbacks, blah blah blah. How can someone complain about 80% of TWO MILLION DOLLARS being in a prize fund for a pool tournament? Has any other tournament even been close to 1.6 million dollars for a prize fund? It's amazing to me that anyone could think a chance at a million bucks is a bad thing.

Granted, the tone of that letter was harsh. It should have been. That letter should be wake-up call to those of us who play and watch pool, because here's a group of guys trying to do for pool what's been done for poker, and they meet resistance from players and fans. A lot of people have been complaining about the state of men's pro pool for years, both players and fans. RAM comes along in an attempt to do something for the game, and it's probably not going to come off because nobody is forward-thinking enough to let it. That's a real shame. Something like this tournament could be the first step in making pool more than just a hobby for some of us. More of us could make a living playing pool as a legitimate sport, and this could go a long way toward getting rid of the negative stereotype pool has. However, the Player's Tournament is probably going to be DOA because nobody cares about the future of the game.

-djb

Steve Lipsky
10-23-2003, 01:34 PM
Hey Doom,

While I respect your opinions, I do think there is a fundamental difference between poker and pool. Poker players routinely put up this kind of money to play. Ever seen the high-limit area of a Vegas poker room? It is insane. The average pot could buy you a decent car. There are (as evidenced by the World Series of Poker) hundreds or thousands of people who would put this kind of stake up to play poker.

Why does it necessarily have to be the same for pool, though? We pool players don't normally put this kind of money up to play. There are very few pool players in the country that would play a set for $10,000 (of their own money) or more. And the only way those games ever come off is when both players want to play each other. Putting up that kind of money to possibly draw a killer in the first round, as is possible in The Players Tournament, is not enticing to most people. Doing so to play on bar tables is unthinkable.

If I play in the World Series, and start the tournament at Phil Ivey's table, yeah, it's a little bit of a problem. But I could choose to play really tight, and maybe even only play hands where he's already folded. It'll hurt me some, sure. But I don't have to lose my $10,000 to him. I could also get dealt the nuts and then I don't care who I'm playing. But if I draw Earl in the first round (any round) of a pool tournament, I have to lose to him. No other outcome is possible.

I really think they are different games, Doom.

- Steve

Ralph S.
10-23-2003, 02:07 PM
I think an event of this magnitude with corprate sponsorship is/would be a great thing for pool as a whole. The RAM group has tried to put this together and had some good ideas along with some not so good. A smaller entry fee would be much more affordable to the masses, as already stated by others. Double elimination would also be a bigger drawing factor.

RAM has entrusted the monies to Diamond Billiards at this point in time. I dont think one can question their sincerity about trying to put on such a mega-event. However, I would spend a lttle and hire a good public relations person to do their speech writing. The letter in question, came across very condescending, although the guy was right in several aspects.

9 Ball Girl
10-23-2003, 02:12 PM
Shiznit. If I had 10Gs to plunk down, I'd already be a winner. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

UWPoolGod
10-23-2003, 02:20 PM
Yeah the entry fee is defintely the worst factor that I see with the whole thing. Obviously there are players out there who are willing to put out $1500 to play in the ring game who would also more than likely be willing to put up $1000 to play in a larger tourney with the number of games involved. $100,000 is still a good take home on a $1000 investment for first place. They might even try it multiple times a year. Have one a month...they can play in one, twelve, or none. Heck if I played and won $10,000 I would play in the next at least 5 and still have $4000 in winning. What we need is a celebrity PRO/AM tourney so pool can get a portion of the Pro's multimillion dollars as well. Bill it out as charity. LOL

Wally_in_Cincy
10-23-2003, 02:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr>
....It was a lot of fun and my investment was something like $35.00. I got my paid for trip to Vegas and managed to win a few thousand in the tournament. No bad, I had a shot to win $25,000 for a $35.00 investment......<hr /></blockquote>

Running qualifiers around the country would be a heck of a lot of work. I think these guys were hoping to pull off the "Big Payday" with a lot of hype and a minimal amount of effort.

dardusm
10-23-2003, 02:29 PM
The big difference between pool and poker is the luck factor. In a poker tournament, the best players don't have to win due to the shortened length of a tournament and increasing blinds. Poker is a game of skill but luck is a huge factor in tournament play. A professional could play his/her very best and put him/herself in a prime winning position only to be outdrawn on the river. Look who won the World Series of Poker last year? An accountant that never played in a live poker tournament. As long as a player understands the basics of poker - starting hands, position, pot odds, etc. they will have a fighting chance under tournament conditons. In the long run, the pros would get the money but in a shortened tournament format amateurs stand a chance.

bolo
10-23-2003, 02:39 PM
So can I assume you have already sent in your $10,000? why so skeptical, no sponsorship? They expect the players to put up all the money and pay them on top of that to run the tournament. No a very practical plan from the beginning. Don't be fooled into think they are trying to something good for pool.

DoomCue
10-23-2003, 02:57 PM
Steve,

There is no doubt that pool and poker are vastly different games. However, whether it's pool or poker, if you're putting up money to play in a tournament, you're taking a chance that you might lose (or win!). I don't think it makes a difference which game you're playing. You could lose sitting next to Phil Ivey or Johnny Chan in the first round in poker, or you could lose to Earl, Busty, or Efren in the first round in pool. Either way, you're out your entry fee, regardless of the game you're playing.

Besides, Steve, you never know, you could be the next Chris Moneymaker for pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Don't sell yourself short - I've seen you play. I don't know anybody who thought Tommy Kennedy would ever win a US Open, or Thorsten Hohmann a World Championship. Everybody's gotta start somewhere....

-djb

snipershot
10-23-2003, 03:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
Snipershot...EXCUSE ME? I take offense at you calling the Diamond Smart Table "shitty". The 7' foot tables are manufactured to very exacting standards (and play basically the same as the 9' version Smart Table). Were this tournament being played on Valley barboxes, I would agree with you. However, the new association with Diamond has put new credibility into this event, imo.
Scott Lee /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Sorry for offending you Scott, I wasn't referring to the Diamond Smart Table specifically, just 7 footers in general as I'm not a big fan of 7 footers (especially for 9 ball /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif). I was also just venting a little anger towards RAM for taking a cheapshot at pool players, should've kept that punching bag I guess.

Sniper

DoomCue
10-23-2003, 03:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> So can I assume you have already sent in your $10,000? why so skeptical, no sponsorship? They expect the players to put up all the money and pay them on top of that to run the tournament. No a very practical plan from the beginning. Don't be fooled into think they are trying to something good for pool. <hr /></blockquote>

Actually, I'm not skeptical. Obviously, you're the one who's skeptical. And no, I'm not putting up the 10 grand (I don't have it to put up), and I'm not asking you to either. I just think there are too many negative people who bitch about the way things are, and then when somebody wants to change the status quo, bitch again.

Let me ask you some things. Do you think Barry Behrman puts on the US Open every year because he likes to LOSE money? How long do you think he can continue to do that? He's already lost his house, he's selling his car, he's doing time in jail, he owes taxes out the yin-yang. What's wrong with RAM wanting to make some money, especially if there's still 1.6 MILLION DOLLARS left in the prize fund? Would it be more fair to you if they left the whole 2 mil in the pot? Apply some thought here. No tournament in the history of pool has had this potential payday, and you're whining about 20% of the entry fees. You ever play in a tournament where they charge you green fees? Did you whine about that, too? If players aren't willing to invest in themselves, which is what they'd be doing in this tournament, because it could turn into something HUGE, then who else will? RAM is the proverbial gift horse, and you're definitely looking it in the mouth.

-djb

cycopath
10-23-2003, 03:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dardusm:</font><hr> The big difference between pool and poker is the luck factor. <hr /></blockquote>
Exactly what I was thinking.

Eric.
10-23-2003, 04:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DoomCue:</font><hr> Besides, Steve, you never know, you could be the next Chris Moneymaker for pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Don't sell yourself short - I've seen you play.
<hr /></blockquote>

Yeah! Besides, Steve only spent the last decade to become an overnite success /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


Eric

Barbara
10-23-2003, 05:45 PM
Just wondering, I'm not a golfer, but is there an entry fee for golf tournaments? Other than the Qualifiers? And if so, what is it? What does it cost to play in a Qualifier?

Barbara

Nostroke
10-23-2003, 10:25 PM
There is nothing wrong with RAM wanting to make money but they cant make/take it from the entry fees and then act like they are being altruistic and pool players are dumb and unappreciative because they dont jump at the chance of getting 80% of their own money back!

Slot machines BY LAW must return more than that!-Would you say slot machines are doing something great for people?

Ram has to make their money from TV rights, sponsors, gate receipts, vendors and the many ways every other sport does it. For people to say pool is going to miss out on something "really big" is ridiculous. I suppose if it was a $100,000.00 entry fee and a 10 million dollar first prize, pool would be missing out on something EVEN BIGGER!!

IM doubting that there is any entry fee for golfers, tennis players etc. but if there is, its minimal. I assure you they are not circulalting their own money (less a 20% cut) amongst each other.

Barry Behrman has had some terrible luck as of late with the Open, but his Open problems were not even a minor contributing factor to the reason for him losing most everything IMHO.

DoomCue
10-24-2003, 06:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nostroke:</font><hr> There is nothing wrong with RAM wanting to make money but they cant make/take it from the entry fees and then act like they are being altruistic and pool players are dumb and unappreciative because they dont jump at the chance of getting 80% of their own money back!<hr /></blockquote>

That's some skewed math there. Explain how a million dollar first prize is 80% of $10,000.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nostroke:</font><hr>Slot machines BY LAW must return more than that!-Would you say slot machines are doing something great for people?<hr /></blockquote>

Apples and oranges. There are significantly more people playing slots than professional pool, therefore the percentage for slots doesn't have to be high. The house does get a take, though, and they're making just a little money (according to the Travel channel, over a billion dollars a year). People who play the slots aren't whining about losing money to the properties which house the machines.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nostroke:</font><hr>Ram has to make their money from TV rights, sponsors, gate receipts, vendors and the many ways every other sport does it. For people to say pool is going to miss out on something "really big" is ridiculous. I suppose if it was a $100,000.00 entry fee and a 10 million dollar first prize, pool would be missing out on something EVEN BIGGER!!<hr /></blockquote>

In an ideal world, if pool were already established, yes, TV money, sponsorship, gate money, etc., would all be excellent ways for the promoter to make money. However, the Players Tournament could be a stepping stone to having those things become available. This is a "chicken or the egg" kind of problem (do you have sponsorship/TV money first, then the tournament, or vice versa?), and it seems to me the guys from RAM have found a solution. Now if they could only get players/fans to squash the skepticism, pool might be on its way. I'm not holding my breath, though.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nostroke:</font><hr>IM doubting that there is any entry fee for golfers, tennis players etc. but if there is, its minimal. I assure you they are not circulalting their own money (less a 20% cut) amongst each other.<hr /></blockquote>

Does it really matter where the prize fund comes from, as long as it's there? If you've ever played in a local tournament, where does the money usually come from? Entry fees. The house may put up a little extra, but the majority of the money, by far, comes from the entry fees. If the prize fund is big enough, the house doesn't add anything at all. Around here, we also pay green fees, which don't go into the purse. I don't hear people whining about the economics of local tournaments, why is it different when somebody tries to do the exact same thing on a bigger scale?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nostroke:</font><hr>Barry Behrman has had some terrible luck as of late with the Open, but his Open problems were not even a minor contributing factor to the reason for him losing most everything IMHO. <hr /></blockquote>

Barry lost over $150,000 the past few years on the Open. That's not a "minor" amount of money. I'd be willing to guess that if he had that cash, he'd still have his house, and he wouldn't owe taxes on Q-Masters.

The point of my argument is that something like the Players Tournament has come along, with a potential to be the "Big Bang" for pro pool, and it's getting shot down left and right by cynics and skeptics who refuse to think about the future of the game. The Players Tournament could be something huge, not just for one tournament, but for the entire sport and, more importantly, its future. If something like this could be pulled off, sponsors would be knocking the doors down at RAM. TV would be all over it. There would be an influx of cash and interest in the game. More money = bigger purses = more players = better competition = benefit for fans, players, promoters, and sponsors. How is that a bad deal?

-djb

UWPoolGod
10-24-2003, 09:44 AM
Finally read the statement by RAM that was posted on AZ. Pretty funny. The guy is basically calling all millions of pool players a bunch of scared pussycats. He says we are all broke...not even true. Well how does he expect a bunch of broke pool players to divy up $10,000. Amazing ego he has. And then to say that there are "exponentially more pool players than poker players" is retarded. There are far more people who have played cards around the house than pool. I think he was just trying to sound smart by using a big word like exponentially...because it does not fit. Oh well...it probably won't happen at this rate. Like I said before if they want to start something why don't they have one $1000 tourney per month and then also have a major tourney. More people would be so inclined to do this I believe than throw up $10,000 on a one time deal. Whatever, the guy is a tool.

Buzzsaw
10-24-2003, 01:36 PM
I saw Amarillo Slim talking about the first couple of poker tournaments only having about 20 players. That seems more realistic for a startup pool tournament than 200 people putting up $10K. Maybe they should reduce their vision a little and get what they can. If it's going to be successful I'm not sure that 200 is better than 100.

I hear people talking about the pros and cons but I haven't heard anyone say they were putting up the money to play in this. Even with the 1M players worldwide I don't see a whole lot of people investing that kind of money on such a risky payoff.

My two cents.

tateuts
10-25-2003, 01:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Barbara:</font><hr> Just wondering, I'm not a golfer, but is there an entry fee for golf tournaments? Other than the Qualifiers? And if so, what is it? What does it cost to play in a Qualifier?

Barbara <hr /></blockquote>

The entry fee for pro golfers who are exempt or invited is relatively low - a token amount as I recall - although I don't know exactly how much. The pros are sought after to play in each event - they are, after all, what makes these tournaments successful.

Qualifiers are more expensive. On the senior tour, I recall a $500 entry fee for a Monday qualifier and having 75 or so players vying for a few spots - so this is a minor source of revenue.

There is a great source of revenue in the team pro am tournaments. Each amateur pays about $5,000 for a couple of rounds with the pros and a few social events. They can raise a few million dollars alone on the pro am. I played in 3 senior tour pro ams (I didn't pay, I was a guest of a corporate sponsor) and I will say it was a lot of fun.

The fuel of golf's success is advertising revenue and corporate sponsorship. Golfers and golf fans tend to be middle age and affluent, the corporate or self-employed type, a good hard-to-reach target market for advertisers. Then there are the sponsors tents, admission fees, real estate sales, golf resort revenue, on and on.

Pool will never be like golf, but I do think pool has a lot of untapped potential.

Chris