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View Full Version : What an hour of videotaping told me.....



Karatemom
10-28-2003, 06:24 PM
That I probably have the longest bridge in the world - 13 1/2". I'm still at least an inch away from the cb before stroking through. And I also have a slipstroke. My stroke is straight though, and my eye patterns are good. But something tells me that C.C. is going to work me to death on the bridge length and distance between cue tip and cb. But it should bring my game up when I'm done!

Any comments or helpful hints??

Heide

Barbara
10-28-2003, 06:38 PM
Heide,

You should shorten that bridge up to 5-7" from the CB when your grip forearm is perpendicular to the floor and you're cueing about 1/2" from the CB. Yeah, it's scary and you think you'll hit the CB on a warmup stroke, but if you look at your tip and the CB when you're stroking forward, you won't.

On the one team I played in a long time ago in the bar league, I could always tell when this one teammate was going to miss. Her bridge got super long - like 12-15 inches - and she always missed!

Barbara~~~looking for the 6 and out...

ras314
10-28-2003, 07:27 PM
Probably not the longest...

Same thing here, over a foot. Scott Lee said either shorten the bridge or get back further on the handle. From looking at the videos either helped the pump handle stroke I didn't know I had. Do think I can aim better with the long bridge but it definintly requires a near perfect stroke.

I should add that the main problem that Scott was trying to correct was my lack of follow thru. Difficult with a long bridge.

Sid_Vicious
10-28-2003, 08:52 PM
I see many professionals using really long bridges, are they all wrong???sid~~~ we'z don't thing so

Rod
10-28-2003, 09:13 PM
There should be a toll charge! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Hi Heide, aw it's not that bad. Tell you what you can do. Shoot every shot with a 6" bridge, "no more". I usually have them reduce it to 4" so you got off easy. LOL Just do that for at least 10 minutes at the begining of every session. Keep your back arm at appx 90 degrees to the cue at address.

If you make it a habbit of doing such at the beginning of every time you practice, your bridge will automatically get shorter. A 9 or 10 " bridge will be plenty long after playing with a 6" bridge. That is every shot, draw, follow etc. People don't realize you can do most anything with a short bridge. Pay attention and learn the timing it takes with less distance. Timing at 9 to 10 inches will be simple. After all that is why people think they need a long bridge, time to accelerate the cue. It gets too long and deceleration can become a problem. There is nothing wrong with a 9"- 10" bridge for 9 ball, but it is good to have a shorter bridge for some finess shots. That all comes in time.

I've had good success with this method, for the ones that stick with the program. If you like, you can limit it to short to medium length shots in the begining. Geez, I'm really letting you off easy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Rod

Rod
10-28-2003, 09:19 PM
As a reply, no there not all wrong, but it doesn't make it right for most people. They after all, have many more hours to perfect their game. Just like killer breaks, it is difficult at best for a decent or even good player to keep it in control.

Rod

stickman
10-29-2003, 03:51 AM
Good for you Heide. It seems to me that it would take an uncommonly accurate stroke to successfully use such a long bridge repeatedly. Here's hoping that this observation brings your game up another level. It may take a while to get comfortable with a shorter bridge, but I suspect it will pay dividends.

Jim

Scott Lee
10-29-2003, 10:37 AM
Heide...You may remember me telling you this...all of my students are taught that the length of the bridge is predetermined by the length of their individual swingpath. This is defined as setting your bridge hand down on the cloth (wherever you normally put it away from the CB, and holding your grip arm perpendicular to the table, while touching the CB); pulling the cuestick back to the end of your backswing; and following through with a normal pendulum swing (with NO elbow drop), until the tip is on the cloth. The tip needs to be, on average, two balls width past the CB, for a normal followthrough. If you hold the butt of your cue too close to the front (which also means it is not perpendicular at the address of the CB), you will naturally have to drop your elbow to produce this kind of followthrough...so you need to move your grip slightly farther back. If you have the correct grip position, but are not getting the necessary 4-6" past the CB, you need to either move closer to the CB with your bridge hand, or move your grip slightly farther back on the butt. As ras314, Rod, and others said...a longer bridge will be more difficult to contact the CB accurately. That is, unless you have a naturally long swingpath. The Filipino players play with extraordinarily long bridges, but they still maintain the necessary followthrough. I have found that swingpath lengths vary greatly, and are not indicative of any particular type of body style or size. I've seen tiny petite women with very long natural swingpaths, and very tall, big men with very short natural swingpaths. A little proper adjustment, and anyone can have a very natural swing through the CB, delivering a perfect stroke. Of course you must develop the other necessary elements of the stroke too...timing and pre-shot routine.

Scott Lee

Sid_Vicious
10-29-2003, 11:01 AM
Scott...Where do you categorize Allison's bridge length???sid

Scott Lee
10-29-2003, 12:29 PM
Sid...If you look at videos of Allison playing a few years ago, and now, you'll notice that she plays with her bridge about 2-3 inches closer than she used to. This happened after her instructor course at Cue Tech. Allison fully understands the necessity of a natural full followthrough, and so can play with any length bridge she wants to. However, if she bridges longer, she also compensates by moving her grip back on the butt, a similiar distance.

Scott

Sid_Vicious
10-29-2003, 12:33 PM
Something tells me that those long bridge length of some proficient players may give them more of an aiming device. Just a thought...sid

Scott Lee
10-29-2003, 01:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Something tells me that those long bridge length of some proficient players may give them more of an aiming device. Just a thought...sid <hr /></blockquote>

Again, sid...If you're not achieving a 'natural' followthrough of 4-6" on your average stroke (80-90% of shots), you don't "learn" what you can get from a lag speed stroke...which means you will likely be trying to overpower your shots (I don't mean YOU, but anyone). Learning to 'feel' the shot is about using the weight of the cue, and timing to create the stroke speed, as opposed to a tight grip and muscled swing (usually meaning some kind of poke).

Scott

Sid_Vicious
10-29-2003, 01:08 PM
I guess I'm a bit simplistic, but if my backhand is always kept at purposely pointing toward the floor, I am going to finish properly unless I become either a wildman swinging for a home run or a timid deer and pull my stroke. It just happen naturally, bridging one ball's width or 6(for me)...sid

koolcuedude
10-29-2003, 02:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> I guess I'm a bit simplistic, but if my backhand is always kept at purposely pointing toward the floor, I am going to finish properly unless I become either a wildman swinging for a home run or a timid deer and pull my stroke. It just happen naturally, bridging one ball's width or 6(for me)...sid <hr /></blockquote>

Short stroke, long follow through is the key.

SRpool
10-29-2003, 04:58 PM
Definitely shorten it up. It will help you be more accurate. Maybe when you start out you could use an open bridge so you can see everything you are doing, even though it may seem awkward, it helps. I agree quite a few of the pros use long bridges, but I know with some of the women who use long bridges as soon as the match is really tough the long bridge costs them some accuracy. Don't get me wrong, I have to use a long bridge sometimes as well..after all I am only 5' tall /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

take care
Sarah

Chris Cass
10-29-2003, 06:20 PM
Hi Sid,

To answer your question. It's not a question of right or wrong. It's more like, the longer the bridge the more vision and less control. I admire Scott for not cloning his students but helping them with their personal game.

As for Heide, I will burn in a 6-8" bridge for more control. You do sacrafice vision but for her, it'll be good. I knew and have known what has been going on with her for awhile. I even put her in action with Pam Bell last week. I took her out of her element totally. 9 Ball on a 9 ft. I wanted to put her in the hot seat to see what would change if any. Well, she lost but faired well. Now is the time I bring her up another 2 balls.

Regards,

C.C.~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Cueless Joey
10-29-2003, 06:25 PM
After watching my session with Scott, I found out Scott was checking the waitresses at Holywood Billiards incessantly while I was missing duck after duck.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Yipes! When I saw my video, I saw how violent my practice stroke was and my follow thru did not exist. I could see my head pecking like a chicken on a feeding rampage as well.
Hey Scott, you wanna bet on the 4-ball ghost this time against me?

Scott Lee
10-30-2003, 06:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> After watching my session with Scott, I found out Scott was checking the waitresses at Holywood Billiards incessantly while I was missing duck after duck.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Joey...Whatta expect? LOL Now you know why Max Eberle is the house pro there...GREAT looking waitresses! All that is behind me now. I just got engaged! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott

pooltchr
10-30-2003, 07:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> All that is behind me now. I just got engaged! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

Congratulations, Scott! I hope she is understanding as my wife is when it comes to table time! Maybe you can bring her wtih you on the road some time. Would like to meet her,
Best of luck.
Steve

JimS
10-30-2003, 07:16 AM
You just got WHAT!!!????

ENGAGED?????? As in spoken for....promised....going steady.....

That's cool Scott!! Happy for you.


Heide......no advise from me but I can tell you that once I got used to the shorter bridge I was much happier with it. Jeff Carter "burned" it in to me first and then CC seared it /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

#### leonard
10-30-2003, 07:21 AM
Heide Almost all the great players I played with first aimed the cue with the tip on the cloth below the cueball. This is one way to get close without fouling the cueball. ####

Fred Agnir
10-30-2003, 07:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Karatemom:</font><hr> That I probably have the longest bridge in the world - 13 1/2". <hr /></blockquote>

I know a lot of people will tell you that you need to have a shorter bridge, and that somewhere around 8" should do. I'd like to see these people videotape themselves like you have. It shouldn't be surprising at the multitude of good players (both amateur and pros) that have long bridges that approach or surpass 12". Sometimes, they have no idea just how long their bridge really is until they see it on film. The game has changed such that being comfortable with a long strong sometimes is necessary. At the same time, being comfortable with an 8" stroke should also be necessary.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm still at least an inch away from the cb before stroking through.<hr /></blockquote>

That could be a problem. It means when you actually hit the ball, you're grip hand is starting to rise, and is getting away from the bottom of the arc. The bottom of the arc (where your forearm is perpendicular to the ground) will be the least sensitive to speed changes. That is, your speed control will be inherently more consistent if you hit the ball when your arm is perpendicular and your grip hand is at the lowest point of the arc of your swing.

But, it's something you've been aware of before. So at least it's not a new issue.

Fred

RUNaRAK
10-30-2003, 07:54 AM
Joey...Whatta expect? LOL Now you know why Max Eberle is the house pro there...GREAT looking waitresses! All that is behind me now. I just got engaged! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott <hr /></blockquote>

Congrats,
Be sure to sign a prenuptial agreement that does not limit you table time LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Best of luck to ya Scott!

stickman
10-30-2003, 08:47 AM
I hope you have a wonderful and happy future together.

Jim

pooltchr
10-30-2003, 09:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>The bottom of the arc (where your forearm is perpendicular to the ground) <hr /></blockquote>

Perpendicular to the ground? or to the cue?

ras314
10-30-2003, 10:09 AM
Now I know why you are late getting to Pheonix! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Fred Agnir
10-30-2003, 10:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr>The bottom of the arc (where your forearm is perpendicular to the ground) <hr /></blockquote>

Perpendicular to the ground? or to the cue? <hr /></blockquote> I'd say ground or table. The cue is almost never parallel to the table, so it'd make no sense to be perpendicular to the cue, IMO.

Fred

Cueless Joey
10-30-2003, 10:54 AM
Congrats Scott.
Make sure those Samsaras are not part of the community property. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Happy for you, here.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-30-2003, 10:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stickman:</font><hr> I hope you have a wonderful and happy future together.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

But can she draw the cueball?

Rich R.
10-30-2003, 11:02 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> I just got engaged! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Congrats Scott. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Does this mean, you are off the road, or are you shopping for a travel home, ala Mike Massey? /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

The real question is, when did you spend enough time in one place, to get engaged? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Scott Lee
10-30-2003, 11:03 AM
JimS...HOLY COW! Where ya been buddy? We've missed ya here for the longest time! I hope you and me and CC can have another session at your house, when I come back to the Midwest next January! Glad to see you're posting again.
Yep...Mary is a sweetheart, and I was lucky to hook up with her. At some point she will quit her job and start traveling with me. We've already taken several road trips together (to IL, TX, and WA), and she loves it!

Scott

JimS
10-30-2003, 11:56 AM
Hi Scott!

I'm really happy to hear you've found your mate and especially happy to hear that you two can travel together. That should be fun.

I'd love to host you and CC and others (anybody close to Galesburg?) in January. Let me know when you are going to be in the neighborhood.

I lost all interest in pool in July of 2002 and only picked up the stick 3 times between then and about a month ago when my interest began to build again. I walked past this fantastic Diamond Pro several times every day for months and never uncovered it. Houston Dan used to mention pool tables becoming laundry folding tables and mine did!! I would have never believed it could happen to me!

But...I got fed up with league, had no place to play and no one to play with and got fed up with hitting drills. I was potting anywhere from 6,000 to 7,000 balls a month hitting table long shots where the purpose was primarily to develop a straight stroke. It just got to be too much. I redeveloped my old interst in hot rods when I got a new Silverado and started customizing it and my time, interest and $$$$ started going that direction. Then my daughter had 3 brain surgeries..and maybe will have another soon (???) so all my attention was going in that direction.

I didn't even lurk here until about a month ago. When I started lurking I discovered that CC had that terrible surgery and I felt deeply ashamed that I was not there for him and his family. Some friend I turned out to be.

But....my interest has been growing again this past month and it's reaching the obsession level again /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif....so I'll be looking forward to seeing you in January. Let's set something up with CC and if there's anybody else within driving distance they are welcome too.

Wally_in_Cincy
10-30-2003, 12:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> ...I got fed up with league, had no place to play and no one to play with

<font color="blue">That can cetainly be a problem. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font color>

I was potting anywhere from 6,000 to 7,000 balls a month

<font color="blue">Keith McCready posted at AZB that he shoots 2000 balls a day when he's practicing seriously. Geez. My arm would fall off. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color>

Then my daughter had 3 brain surgeries..and maybe will have another soon (???)

<font color="blue">JimS I hope your daughter gets better. Sorry to hear that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif </font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

Karatemom
10-30-2003, 01:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Joey...Whatta expect? LOL Now you know why Max Eberle is the house pro there...GREAT looking waitresses! All that is behind me now. I just got engaged! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott <hr /></blockquote>Way to go, Scott! Congratulations! Please give our best to her and can't wait to meet her.

Heide ~ so when is the big day???

Karatemom
10-30-2003, 01:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> Heide......no advise from me but I can tell you that once I got used to the shorter bridge I was much happier with it. Jeff Carter "burned" it in to me first and then CC seared it /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>Hey stranger! Very sorry to hear about your daughter. Please know that you and yours are in our thoughts.

As for this shorter bridge - I HATE IT!!!! I have shot with such a long bridge for such a long time, it is very hard to switch. But CC had me do 100 shots yesterday with an 8" bridge, then went to Jonny K's place and played some 9 ball with Christ using a shorter bridge. It will take some getting used to, but I already notice much better cb control and speed control. so I suppose CC might just be right this one time, hahahaha.

Take care and don't be such a stranger!

Heide

SPetty
10-30-2003, 01:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr>I lost all interest in pool
...
I walked past this fantastic Diamond Pro several times every day for months and never uncovered it. Houston Dan used to mention pool tables becoming laundry folding tables and mine did!!
...
I got a new Silverado and started customizing it
...
my interest has been growing again this past month and it's reaching the obsession level again
<hr /></blockquote>Hi Jim,

I was going to welcome you back as well, but I was waiting to see if anyone else would notice! While you've been gone, I bought my own Diamond Pro table. Nice!

It's hard to believe a fanatic like you could simply "lose interest" in pool.

FYI, Houston Dan isn't around any more either. Just gave up on us for some reason.

However, you'll also remember the great advice from years past about keeping that pool table cover OFF the table! That way, when you talk past it, you can stroke a few balls. That's what keeps you in it. You'll also be less likely to fold clothes on it and get all that lint on the table...

When do we get to see pics of your new obsession?

Very sorry to hear about your daughter, and I hope she gets well soon.

pooltchr
10-30-2003, 01:45 PM
Fred, I agree it's very rare that the cue is level. That's why I make the distinction of perp to the cue. With the pendulim motion, looking perp to the cue, once your arm passes that point, that's when the tip starts to drop. If you look at it in relation to the floor, if the cue butt is elevated, that downward motion of the tip has already started. Try it with the butt up around 30 degrees to exagerate it and you will see what I mean.
JMHO

NBC-BOB
10-30-2003, 01:48 PM
For awhile I had a camera, setup over my table, so I could go back and mostly check my patterns when playing straight pool.I found it very helpful.Over the year's I've seen lot's of player's with long bridges and unorthodox strokes, that played very well.I think the basic fundamental rules that we all read about are good,to start with,but once someone finds a particular fundamental that works for them then that's what they should go with.Some people, get so caught up, in constantly changing there fundamentals, they do themselves more harm then good.

Chris Cass
10-30-2003, 04:30 PM
####,

Just wanted to let you know that you can come live with us anytime. Become part of our family and we don't ask anything of you. You can paint, use the puter or anything else you want to do. No strings attatched.

I know this has nothing to do with this post. Just letting you know, you always have a home, a family to enjoy and will take good care of you.

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
10-30-2003, 04:39 PM
Hey Joey,

At the Midwest Expo I stopped at the Samsara booth. I told the guy to give me one of those and put it on Scott Lee's tab. He smiled. I said, seriously, he told me I could have one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I then told him anyone who sponsors Scott is a friend of mine. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif True!!!

Regards,

C.C.~~wait till Scott checks in at Samsara. HAHAHAHAHAHA

Cueless Joey
10-30-2003, 04:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chris Cass:</font><hr> Hey Joey,

At the Midwest Expo I stopped at the Samsara booth. I told the guy to give me one of those and put it on Scott Lee's tab. He smiled. I said, seriously, he told me I could have one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I then told him anyone who sponsors Scott is a friend of mine. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif True!!!

Regards,

C.C.~~wait till Scott checks in at Samsara. HAHAHAHAHAHA <hr /></blockquote>
You should have told them to give you the Black Widow/Spyder model plus the Cocobola Diamond Table with web inlays and Orange County Chopper's Black Widow.
Boy, if I had a million dollars. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I still have the bocote Samsara I bought from Scott.
I still have not used it.

Chris Cass
10-30-2003, 05:11 PM
Hi Bob,

I totally agree with everything you've said. I feel the need for you to know what's going on with K-Moms game. I first video taped her around a yr ago. We took what she was doing and adjusted it. Now, she has hit another level.

I knew it was time again to see what was happening. Scott dropped by and helped her tramendously. That was about 6mths ago I think? Anyway, her machanics are good except for her bridge length. It's actually 14". Her follow-thru is extremely long. Her bridge hand ends up at the joint of the cue when completed.

This is on most of her long shots. What I want to do is maximize her control and minumize her vision to a comfortable level. I figure this to be around 8-10" for her. This adjustment I feel will be good for her game.

I feel everyone should have a stroke analysis done by an instructor every 6 mths. This keeps the shooter on track and to keep their game going up. I didn't have these type of choices myself when coming up and had to learn the hard way. Back then they didn't have qualified instructors just the kick your a$$ degree. LOL

Thanks for posting to K-Mom and keepem coming. Lord knows we all can use the help. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

C.C.

Chris Cass
10-30-2003, 05:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr>
I didn't even lurk here until about a month ago. When I started lurking I discovered that CC had that terrible surgery and I felt deeply ashamed that I was not there for him and his family. Some friend I turned out to be. [ QUOTE ]


Jim,

You are a very good friend and have no reason to be asshamed. I could have told you but I knew you were enjoying your grandchildren and Caroline. I'm sorry for what your daughter is going through. My prayers are with her.

January sounds good. Stick around awhile. We have new people and miss of course our other friends. Troy is going through some tough times and a few others here too. Everyone has been supportive and God has been listening here.

Regards,

C.C.~~#### has come back but still misses Howie. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

JimS
10-30-2003, 06:51 PM
Thanks for the warm welcome back CC, KMom, Scott, Wally, SPetty, and anybody I forgot to mention. I appreciate it. I'll probably be around more often than not as the obsession has returned. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Only now I'm only pocketing 90 balls a day.

Rod
10-30-2003, 07:22 PM
Welcome back Jim,

Glad to see your renewed interest. I knew you were missing but hopefully not lost. LOL Best wishes to your daughter in the comming weeks.

Rod

Rod
10-30-2003, 07:34 PM
Heide,

You'll find in time a shorter bridge is very comfortable and accurate. There will even be some shots you'll want to use an even shorter bridge and you will like using it, it just takes time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif CC can show you some examples. Along with getting the tip closer to whitey at address I think you will see a lot of improvement in the near future. It sounds like your table time is starting to pay off. Now if you can Just keep CC up and running, you'll be set. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

~~~ rod, still ticking

JimS
10-30-2003, 09:21 PM
Thanks Rod. Glad to see you are still around. Lots of new names. Reckon we'll get acquainted.

#### leonard
10-31-2003, 07:07 AM
Chris
Thanks for the offer, if you expect me to move in you'll have to email me your address as I changed computers and never thought to take the addresses with me.

Then I can mail you the same pictures I sent Gayle. ####