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Diana Minor
10-29-2003, 08:11 PM
Like anyone I thought of trying to play pool professionally.
I thought that if I failed to make money I could always go back and just enjoy playing amateur pool.

Enter the BCA which I have had NO AFFILIATION with for well over 10 years. Nor have I ever won a BCA State or National tournament, but they feel they have the right to THROW MY NAME AROUND on a LIST of people they feel are pro caliber players.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know of any other sport at which the pros are not making money.
I in turn have lost money at every pro tournament I have ever played in.
To me it is sad that the BCA has taken it upon themselves to single ME out, along with I'm sure other people that have tried to play professionally.

Barbara
10-29-2003, 09:39 PM
Yes Diana, you would be one of those that the BCA would seek to bar from their tournaments. Have you ever asked them why and what their criteria is for doing so and how it applies to to directly?

So where have you been in the past five years?

Heck, I still have your card on my fridge and I still owe you some nuts.

Barbarabb

Alfie
10-30-2003, 12:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Diana Minor:</font><hr> Like anyone I thought of trying to play pool professionally. I thought that if I failed to make money I could always go back and just enjoy playing amateur pool. <hr /></blockquote>Specifically what competitions have you been barred from that you want to participate in? There are many leagues and tournaments that are not BCA sanctioned.

Diana Minor
10-30-2003, 08:53 AM
This is true. There are tournaments that I can play in.
There are many tournaments local or close to home that I am
barred from because of the BCA list. Example: of that is the (Windy City Open). Yes, I can play these leagues &amp; some tournaments. My point is the BCA list bars me from a lot of events that are close to home.

Diana Minor
10-30-2003, 11:15 AM
Barbara,
Here is a copy word for word from my FIRST letter to BCA ( John Lewis).

Diana,
On September 9, 2003, the BCA Leagues &amp; Player Programs Committee review your request for downgrading your playing status form professional to amateur level. Although they are sensitive to your situation, the committee declined to make an exception to the policy of "Once a Pro, always a Pro". This policy is reflected in other sports as well. Therefore, the committee has rejected your request for downgrade.
The BCA wishes you well in your future playing career.
Best regards,
John Lewis
National Director of Leagues &amp; Player Programs

The Rhino Chaser
10-30-2003, 12:18 PM
Diana,
On September 9, 2003, the BCA Leagues &amp; Player Programs Committee review your request for downgrading your playing status form professional to amateur level. Although they are sensitive to your situation, the committee declined to make an exception to the policy of "Once a Pro, always a Pro". This policy is reflected in other sports as well. Therefore, the committee has rejected your request for downgrade.
The BCA wishes you well in your future playing career.
Best regards,
John Lewis
National Director of Leagues &amp; Player Programs

<hr /></blockquote>Diana:

Did you ever inquire as to what other sports, have the once a pro always a pro policy? I know that the USGA will allow a player to regain amatuer status after not competing as a professional for a certain amount of time. Also the once a pro always a pro comment seems like such a silly statment. When you consider in the world of pool there is such a blurry line between who is and who isn't a professional IMO.

Alfie
10-30-2003, 02:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Diana Minor:</font><hr>My point is the BCA list bars me from a lot of events that are close to home.<hr /></blockquote>I think that your frustration is misdirected. It's the promoters the Windy City Open that do not want highly skilled players in their tournament. They use the BCA list because it is convenient. It saves them from having to make the "your too good for what we want" judgement calls.

Blame the promoters for not having the guts to make the tough decisions not the BCA pro list, IMO. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

pooltchr
10-30-2003, 02:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Diana Minor:</font><hr>My point is the BCA list bars me from a lot of events that are close to home.<hr /></blockquote>I think that your frustration is misdirected. It's the promoters the Windy City Open that do not want highly skilled players in their tournament. They use the BCA list because it is convenient. It saves them from having to make the "your too good for what we want" judgement calls.

Blame the promoters for not having the guts to make the tough decisions not the BCA pro list, IMO. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

As a TD for an amateur tour, I think you are being a little bit harsh. How is a promoter, TD, whatever supposed to know the skill level of every player that wants to sign up to play. Having a list to work from eliminates the whining (do pool players whine???) over why do you let him play and not me. I've heard that too much. The list is the only fair way to go until pool gets organized enough to somehow be able to rate every player in the country. I would love to see that happen, but I doubt if it will ever be possible, at least not in my lifetime.

TxArmyWife
10-30-2003, 03:36 PM
hey dee, this is kat...
i went to the bca hit list for female pros, what are they using as a guideline for this list? just from memory i can name a half dozen who were touring pro status that aren't there. did john lewis give an explanation of how the list was formed and who decided what women go on it? it's the craziest thing i've seen so far, lol.

Alfie
10-30-2003, 07:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> Blame the promoters for not having the guts to make the tough decisions not the BCA pro list, IMO. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif <hr /></blockquote>

As a TD for an amateur tour, I think you are being a little bit harsh. <hr /></blockquote>Let me emphasize ... /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Bob
10-31-2003, 12:45 AM
Thank you Pooltchr, you know what you are talking about!

A lot of people don't know how tough it is to make an amateur tournament. There are too many people all over the country that are champions and the BCA pro list is a solid guideline to use. If we make an exception for one player to get in, then everyone else wants in too.

No offense Diane, but I have no idea who you are and that's why we use the pro list. So forgive me if I have to go by the guidelines, but that why guidelines are set.

Please also note, that we are aware of many players that should be considered "Pros' and are not on the list. This makes it all the more difficult, but again we have to have guidelines and stick by them.

There is a td (Dr. Pool www.drpool.net (http://www.drpool.net) ) who has a selected list of what he considers big dawgs. He is running some of his tournaments where these "Big Dawgs" cannot play in them. We are working with him in several ventures in the future. We truly understand your dilemma, and believe me, we want you to play ... so give us a chance and hopefully in the near future we will have events for everyone.

Bob Romano
Promoter of the Windy City Open
www.windycityopen.org (http://www.windycityopen.org)

Billy
10-31-2003, 02:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TxArmyWife:</font><hr> hey dee, this is kat...
i went to the bca hit list for female pros, what are they using as a guideline for this list? just from memory i can name a half dozen who were touring pro status that aren't there. did john lewis give an explanation of how the list was formed and who decided what women go on it? it's the craziest thing i've seen so far, lol. <hr /></blockquote>

Tammie Wesley is or was a pro I think

saw her in Vegas competing on the bar tables of the BCA tournament

who else?it may help her cause

SRpool
10-31-2003, 03:23 AM
I just took a look at the pro list and noticed a few things.

1. it hasn't been updated in how long?
2. there are alot of men and women who I have never heard of and most from other countries which leads me to believe they simply play in the BCA pro tournament and are made into a pro. What if they move to the states and want to play but they are already banned from many tournaments.
3. if it is based on the BCA pro tournament why isnt someone like Lee Heuwagen on the list or maybe Brian Groce. Lee got 5th in the pro tournament, Brian used to play in pro tournaments. Yet, there are people who haven't played in years or played in one tournament and they are pros.
4. Could I have played in some tournaments like the Midwest open or others although I am a pro but since it hasn't been updated my name is not on that list?

I still don't understand /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

TxArmyWife
10-31-2003, 03:38 AM
ummmm, my very wonderful friend Deanna Kniola- Henson was also at the tourney in Vegas, which brings to mind, Cathy Vanover who WON SCOTCH DOUBLES. I'm not throwing stones, I'm all for our sport, but...... Where is the justification with this so -called PRO list? I can also name, Dora Valdez, Susan Dasher (past VP of the WPBA and Sportsperson of the year) Joanne Mason- Parker, and yes, Tammie Wesley-Jones was on my memory list.... omg GMTA, lol. Let me tell ya, I have no problem shooting these women, I just have a problem with a BLACKBALL LIST. I say, get rid of the stupid, inconsistent list!

TxArmyWife
10-31-2003, 03:52 AM
Thank you Pooltchr, you know what you are talking about!

A lot of people don't know how tough it is to make an amateur tournament. There are too many people all over the country that are champions and the BCA pro list is a solid guideline to use. If we make an exception for one player to get in, then everyone else wants in too.

No offense Diane, but I have no idea who you are and that's why we use the pro list. So forgive me if I have to go by the guidelines, but that why guidelines are set.

Please also note, that we are aware of many players that should be considered "Pros' and are not on the list. This makes it all the more difficult, but again we have to have guidelines and stick by them.

There is a td (Dr. Pool www.drpool.net (http://www.drpool.net) ) who has a selected list of what he considers big dawgs. He is running some of his tournaments where these "Big Dawgs" cannot play in them. We are working with him in several ventures in the future. We truly understand your dilemma, and believe me, we want you to play ... so give us a chance and hopefully in the near future we will have events for everyone.

Bob Romano
Promoter of the Windy City Open
www.windycityopen.org (http://www.windycityopen.org)



This is why I would never shoot in one of your tournaments, you apparently do not do your HOMEWORK (IMO.) You base your info on a list that is inconsistent with the facts...

But...then...I am just jane schmo "pool-player"

CarolNYC
10-31-2003, 04:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
No offense Diane, but I have no idea who you are <hr /></blockquote>
Diana Minor was a proplayer from the WPBA tour-she was sponsored by the band "Aerosmith" (how strong is that?) and was involved in many charities, one of which, she cut her hair and donated it-that was the last time I spoke to her and that was in Valley Forge!She was also my teammate in a Pro-Am!
Glad to see you well, Diana! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Have a nice day!
Carol /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Bob
10-31-2003, 07:30 AM
I am forwarding this thread to John Lewis, and hopefully he will respond to it.

All we are trying to do is run a good amateur event. There is no other list out there to go by. I cannot claim myself as an authority on who is pro and who is not by myself and this is why I must go by a national list.

I am truly sorry and completely understand why you are upset and all I can tell you is that we are working on a project where you all can play.

In addition, as I mentioned before, there are people who are not on that list that defiantly should be and we are VERY aware of this.

jjinfla
10-31-2003, 08:27 AM
I would think the the TD's would use the list as a "Guideline" and not so much as an "absolute" list.
Sometimes it is better to let common sense prevail.

When Sarah Ellerby wanted to play in the Kingsbay Amateur tournament in Ocala a year or maybe two years ago the TD took a vote of the players and they elected to let her play. Sarah was relatively unknown then and they didn't realize how good she was. But she didn't win it.

But it is a no win situation for the TD. If it is a truly Amateur event he really doesn't want the very good players in it. And if he lets in a person listed on the pro-list, even though that person is not playing at pro level anymore, and that person wins, or even finishes high, then everybody gets upset.

But what I don't understand is that if the BCA is for the Amateurs then why is it that all the pros play in the BCA 9-ball Open in Vegas?

And when pro baseball players are sent back to the minors are they still considered pro baseball players? Or former pros?

It would be ideal if there could be this giant computer with a database of all pool players somehow ranking all of them and anybody above a certain rank would be inelligible for Amateur play. But that is impossible because they can't even rank the top 100 men properly. Every ranking system is different.

Jake

Scott Lee
10-31-2003, 01:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> It's the promoters the Windy City Open that do not want highly skilled players in their tournament.
<hr /></blockquote>

Alfie...HUH? If you think Eric Durbin, Jesse Bowman, Jeff Sargent, and Scott Tollefson are not 'highly skilled players', you're SADLY mistaken! These are just four of AT LEAST a couple dozen other people I could name, who played in the last two Chicago events (among many, many other tournaments), that are definitely "pro ability" players, who do NOT have jobs, and play pool for all of their incomes...whether it is tournaments or gambling! If we're going to have true amateur events, we need to weed out these players. Pretty easy to do, if you ask me. Just take out the top 10-20 names from all the national tournaments (BCA, APA, VNEA, TAP, etc...not to mention the regional "amateur" tours). But if you did that, then you wouldn't have the "best players" competing in all these so-called amateur events! LOL

Scott Lee

Wally_in_Cincy
10-31-2003, 02:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>....Eric Durbin, Jesse Bowman, Jeff Sargent, and Scott Tollefson .... <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for refreshing my memory. So these guys can play but Diana can't /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I don't know the answer, but if Durb is allowed to play I wouldn't call it an "amateur" tournament /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

TxArmyWife
10-31-2003, 03:34 PM
Thank you Bob, that's a great idea to send to John Lewis. Maybe then, he will review it and make many corrections or at least update the policies surrounding this list.

As an amateur female pool player, I have played many of the TOURING PROS on the WPBA Am Tours. I always seemed to draw on the first round, Helena Thornfeldt or Laura Smith or a lady of very high caliber that I truely respect. I spent thousands of dollars going to tournaments all over the country only to draw these women and lose. But.... It was an honor and a privledge to be able to say, I played them my very best and I lost. On the other side of the coin, I've played Jeri Engh on an am tour and killed her. Then had to turn around and play Dora Valdez &amp; Holly Sholes. All were active or touring pro status. (on an amateur tour)

How are we as pool players able to rate our game to know if we are of that caliber unless we are given the opportunity to play the very best? There is no money in tournament play to speak of....not even in Vegas, so if you are having problems with whiners, it's because they are afraid to play someone they know are more talented. IMO, they are not dedicated to our sport and the progress we have made over the last 25 or so years. Let them stay home if it's money they are interested in, let us play the really great players in the tourneys.

P.S. I was not trying to hurt your feelings earlier in my last post, I was trying to make a point.

Barbara
10-31-2003, 04:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TxArmyWife:</font><hr> Thank you Bob, that's a great idea to send to John Lewis. Maybe then, he will review it and make many corrections or at least update the policies surrounding this list.
<hr /></blockquote>
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!!

And you think John Lewis is going to actually do something about this?

I'll take odds, heck no he won't!

This "once a Pro, always a Pro" Bull is just that. Should this be re-evaluated? Yes, absolutely. The BCA should be made to come up with a more definitve definition of who they intend to exclude from their amateur events. But, who drives the BCA and in what interests would they have to accomodate their membership?

You just can't absolutely believe how they banter around with words to come up with anything! Every word and clause is analyzed in its semantics. They parse through every sentence! Terse is not in their vocabulary and you wonder why it takes more than one intuitve idea to sort through one rule!

On any given day, any one person can beat someone else "better" than them. That rules in any sport I know of.

I am reminded of the one NorthEast Women's Tour NY State Championship event when "Delaware Donna" Tidwell put Karen Corr on the wrong side of the chart in the first round they played.

And also when Joanne Mason-Parker finished 5th in another Qualifier. Boy! Was she put off!! I haven't seen her since! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif!

Barbara

Rich R.
10-31-2003, 05:07 PM
Scott, I'm not positive, but I believe Scott Tollefson has a job. At least he did, last year around this time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TxArmyWife
10-31-2003, 05:31 PM
ok, ok, ok, I know I was giving way too much credit, lol...thanks for pointing that out!

Alfie
10-31-2003, 10:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> It's the promoters the Windy City Open that do not want highly skilled players in their tournament.
<hr /></blockquote>

Alfie...HUH? If you think Eric Durbin, Jesse Bowman, Jeff Sargent, and Scott Tollefson are not 'highly skilled players', you're SADLY mistaken! These are just four of AT LEAST a couple dozen other people I could name,[...]

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>Hey, Scott, how ya doin'?

Yeah, there will always be controversy about who should/should not be on this list or any other that attempts to draw a line between amateur and pro. It's the BCA's baby and concerns only BCA sanctioned amateur events. I'll let the BCA take care of its own. If an independent promoter wants to use the BCA list, or any other, or none he is free to do so.

(-- waiting for more criticism due to sloppy post construction /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

Ralph S.
11-01-2003, 12:41 AM
Jesse Bowman is a helluva player. He plays the larger regional area tourneys as well as another name somebody already mentioned, Brian Groce.

I will tell you Alfie, I personally have watched Bowman play thousand dollar sets. You gotta be a player to go after that kind of money.

Alfie
11-01-2003, 02:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph S.:</font><hr>I will tell you Alfie, I personally have watched Bowman play thousand dollar sets. You gotta be a player to go after that kind of money.<hr /></blockquote>I don't doubt it, Ralph.

-- not making points well today

Scott Lee
11-01-2003, 11:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> Hey, Scott, how ya doin'?

Yeah, there will always be controversy about who should/should not be on this list or any other that attempts to draw a line between amateur and pro. It's the BCA's baby and concerns only BCA sanctioned amateur events. I'll let the BCA take care of its own. If an independent promoter wants to use the BCA list, or any other, or none he is free to do so.

(-- waiting for more criticism due to sloppy post construction /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Alfie! Hope things are well down south! Yes, you're right about the pro vs. amateur controversy...it seems like a no-win situation. I think there needs to be a third tier between pro and amateur...maybe a "semi-pro" designation. That way, these top players can't play in designated amateur events, and amateur players could then CHOOSE to play in so-called semi-pro events, like the Viking Tour, et al...perhaps with some kind of spot from the semi-pros and pros.

Scott

8BallChump
11-01-2003, 09:29 PM
Let me say one thing AGAIN..... first of all.... AMATEURS DO NOT GET PAID! If that is what the "amateurs" in this country want, then so be it..... if it is NOT, then they must learn to raise the level of their game to be competitive with others who DO work on their game (by practicing, gambling, playing in COMPETITIVE events, etc....) No one likes a winner..PERIOD.

Why not have 3 divisions: Pro, Semi-Pro, Amateur.

Pro events have a minimum of XXX amount of prize $$ and entry Fee.... say minimum of $50,000 prize fund (entry fees plus the difference in added $$).

Semi-Pro events are ANY event with prize money between $1 and $49,999.

Amateur events are ANY event which receives NO PRIZE MONEY.

Let the people CHOOSE (like they do in other sports) where they want to play. Once they make a choice, they can only play UP, not down a category....unless they appear before some review committee.....

That way EVERYONE has their choice of where they want to play and how much they want to gain from it.

I think then that you will send some TREMENDOUS fields in this sport.

Hold the thunderous applause.... just nominate me for the Nobel Peace Prize.... I could use the million bucks! (ie.... I play pool and have NEVER made a living out of it... I just want to eat!)

Harold Acosta
11-01-2003, 10:48 PM
The BCA's definition of "professional player"

Top 128 men players of the WPBA
Top 32 women players of the WPBA
Top 64 of the Camel Pro Billiards Series
Top 16 of the Mizerak Senior Tour
Top 32 women of the WPBA (womens professional billiard assoc.)
Any women classified as a "Tourning Pro" or an "Active Pro" by the WPBA.
Top 64 of the www.AZBilliards.com (http://www.AZBilliards.com) Pro rankings.

The BCA reserves the right to change ranking quotas at any time based on changes in a professional organization's status or situation.

The BCA League and Program Dept. reserves the right to disqualify anyone formerly or currently considered to be a professional-caliber player. Players who formerly met BCA "professional" criteria and who are considering competing in BCA amateur events should be aware of the following: If the player has not competed in BCA amateur events in recent years, the BCA will be following the policy of "once a professional, always a professional."

If you are unsure contact the League and Programs Dept. for confirmation of status prior to entering the event.

ManlyShot
11-02-2003, 07:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Diana Minor:</font><hr>To me it is sad that the BCA has taken it upon themselves to single ME out, along with I'm sure other people that have tried to play professionally. <hr /></blockquote>

The BCA website -- www.bca-pool.com (http://www.bca-pool.com) -- has a listing of men's and women's professionals and men's and women's masters.

In reviewing the names, I was curious as to why Ronnie Allen's name isn't on any list. Is he allowed to play in amateur events? If he is, then I think Diana Minor should be able to compete as well.

ManlyShot

Scott Lee
11-02-2003, 11:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ManlyShot:</font><hr> In reviewing the names, I was curious as to why Ronnie Allen's name isn't on any list. Is he allowed to play in amateur events? If he is, then I think Diana Minor should be able to compete as well.

ManlyShot <hr /></blockquote>

ManlyShot...Yes, Ronnie Allen plays in many amateur events, and regional tour events...and to be fair, there are many other 'pro players' that do the same thing, because they CAN! He doesn't play so much with the best players anymore, because he is old, and in ill health. But trust me...he can STILL run out, and is often seen trying to hustle younger players who don't who he is.
In pool hustling, it is still 'caveat emptor'...but that doesn't make it right! If you're a current or former world champion...let alone a 'legend' like Ronnie...should you have more morals than trying to prey on young, unsuspecting amateur players? I'd like to think so, but that's jmo! However, I will say that I enjoy watching Ronnie's 'antics',
especially when he is playing in the later rounds of some of the 'amateur' tournaments I've seen him in. He IS a character! LOL

Scott Lee