PDA

View Full Version : Mike Sigel is Back



jjinfla
10-31-2003, 07:16 PM
Check the AZB website homepage for the complete story.

Mike will play in the Mizerak tour.

Jake

cueball1950
10-31-2003, 09:04 PM
Hi JJ.. I just wonder if he is getting an appearance fee. When the Joss tour was having their finals tournament at the casino he called Mike Zuglan who invited him and asked if there was any money in the fund for an appearance fee for him..Mike told him he was more than welcome to come play but no appearance fee. He never showed....would love to see him play again. Hell of a player....................mike

Popcorn
10-31-2003, 09:20 PM
What a difference, Miz insists on always paying his entry fee, shows up early so he can do an interview, stays till the end of the tournament for the final, (even if he goes out the first day). Signs autigraphs whenever asked. Allows his name to be used in any promotional stuff. He will do what ever it takes to insure the success of a tournament, and to my knowledge, never asks for a thing.

L.S. Dennis
10-31-2003, 09:27 PM
Yeah, I went to a Sigel exhibition in SF and someone asked him to sign his cue ball. Sigel said he gets $50.00 for his autograph. The guy's a wonderful player and one of the most knowledgeable commentators when he does tv but the guy has a tremendous ego and simply a jerk.

dg-in-centralpa
10-31-2003, 09:28 PM
I,too, would love to see Mike play, but after seeing him in action at VF, I wouldn't pay to see him. He was charging $25 to sign a cueball,program,t-shirt,etc. No one else was charging unless you bought a poster or cueball from that particular pro.If people are wiling to pay him, more power to them. When I watched this, Mike was somewhat arrogant.

DG - felt that Mike lost his credibility

Sid_Vicious
10-31-2003, 09:52 PM
"and someone asked him to sign his cue ball. Sigel said he gets $50.00 for his autograph."

Sounds like ol' Mike-e would give Earl a good name...sid

Ralph S.
11-01-2003, 12:45 AM
I witnessed similar events with Siegal at the DCC.

jjinfla
11-01-2003, 06:08 AM
Aww come on guys you are just showing how jealous you all are. If a person does not ask for an appearance fee he surely will not get it. You probably would be surprised at the fees people get for making an appearance. And what is wrong for getting paid to sign a cueball? There are many people who would be honored to talk to Mike, or some of the top pros, while he is signing a cueball, or cue case for them. The small amount they give the top player for this will be repaid to them over and over for the rest of their life. Everytime they look at that cueball it brings back to them a pleasant moment when they actually were in the presence of greatness. You guys may may call it bunk but then how many times did someone ask you for your autograph? And if you had a dozen cueballs and people were willing to give you $10 - $20 for you to sign it would you do it? Take you about 15 -30 minutes to make a couple hundred dollars - tax free. it sure does beat playing $50 sets all night to come ahead $50.

As for Mike not signing autographs that's nonsense because I got one and he was real nice about it too. I really wanted him to sign a cueball but as you say he requests $50 for that. But the thing to remember is that not only does he request it but he gets it. So why give it away for free when there are plenty of people who will pay for it. And Ray Martin wants $30 as does Buddy Hall. But Buddy is too nice and he will do it for free.

You guys better take advantage of these pros now while you have the chance because in the future they will all get smart and charge fees. They have a product to sell, their name, so they are fools to give it away.

Politicians go all over giving private speaches. Do you think they do that for free? hell no they get a fee. Bill Clinton gets $100,000 when someone requests him to give a speach. Do you think he should do it for free when people are willing to pay him? It's called the American Way.

Jake

Sid_Vicious
11-01-2003, 07:06 AM
"You guys better take advantage of these pros now while you have the chance because in the future they will all get smart and charge fees. They have a product to sell, their name, so they are fools to give it away."


In all due respect, I ain't worried about missing my chance. The professionals of pool hardly hold any notice at all from Joe Public, and I give a rat's a$$ about having a signature if it's gonna cost me money. To me, these people are lucky to have me and people like me following them for autographs. I don't find them very wise trying to suck cash outta the small group of pool enthusiasts there are left following their trade, especially the men's side. They are struggling as it is...sid

eg8r
11-01-2003, 07:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Aww come on guys you are just showing how jealous you all are. <hr /></blockquote> LOL, Jake, after reading your post, this quote of yours cracks me up. If you turn it around your post looks like you are trying to justify the fact that you were a sucker and paid $50 for some guy to sign your cue ball when others were getting it for $25. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I personally would not pay the money, but I have his sig for free many times. Never on a ball only on posters, but a sig is a sig. I do not collect balls so that does not interest me.

The point being is that your entire argument is why shouldn't he get paid if people are willing and you are right. If he does not ask to get paid, it probably will not happen, so he asks. No problem in that. I follow the same logic and tell him I am not paying for his signature, and everytime, he went ahead and signed whatever I needed signed (posters for friends).

Like you said, all you have to do is ask. I ask for it for free, he asks to get paid.

eg8r

eg8r
11-01-2003, 07:21 AM
This is awesome news. Thanks for the information.

eg8r

pooldaddy9
11-01-2003, 07:26 AM
[ QUOTE ]
as does Buddy Hall. But Buddy is too nice and he will do it for free.


He might be nice to you and sign one for you free but not for everybody.
I don't blame them for wanting to get paid for an autographed ball. Like you said it is worth it BUT I think if you are at the actual event, having paid to get into the event, they should sign for free. Most of the players do sign for free.
It cost me 500.00 to go watch the US OPEN. That should be enough for an autograph. How much would they have got paid if no fans showed up?
If you are not at the event, then you should pay for an autograph.Most players have a site you can buy from. If you are there, it should be free. If you want more than one ball signed by a player, you should pay. jmo

ManlyShot
11-01-2003, 08:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ralph S.:</font><hr> I witnessed similar events with Siegal at the DCC. <hr /></blockquote>

I was at the DCC last year, and a lady came up to me and was upset because this young kid asked Mike Sigel for an autograph and he refused, citing the same reasons listed here. I asked her where the kid was, and I escorted this kid around the ballroom and got as many autographs for him from every single pro I could muster. The young boy soon forgot about Mike Sigel and was walking around with a smile on his face because he obtained autographs of top pros such as Jose Parica, Shannon Daulton (speaking of which, where is he lately?), Keith McCready, Alex the Lion, Buddy Hall, and a few others whose names escape me right now.

In defense of Mike Sigel, I can't tell you how many times I have seen autographed cue-balls and other items up for auction on eBay and other websites. This is probably why some pool players may be hesitant to give away their John Hancock so freely (IMO).

Diana Hoppe covers a lot of events for AzBilliards, and her pictures always amaze me, how she captures the players' personalities.

She recently came up with a great idea. She shoots Earl Strickland with a fan playing pool, and then she immediately prints the picture on site and has Earl personalize his autograph on the photo with the fan's name. I think she charges $25 for it, and they were selling like hot cakes at the Midwest Open. Everybody wanted to play Earl and get a personally autographed picture of themselves with him. What a great keepsake for spectators.

Diana should publish a book with her pictures. I have seen some of her portfolio, and they are truly extraordinary.

ManlyShot

Jay
11-01-2003, 10:31 AM
Does anyone know if the tournament at Mizeraks is going to be open to the public to watch? I was playing there yesterday night and they are rewrapping the tables with new Simonis cloth. I hope its open for everyone to watch because I would really like to see Mike Sigel play.

dg-in-centralpa
11-01-2003, 10:32 AM
Jealous of Mike? Not a chance. Two years ago Jeanette Lee was promoting her new book at Valley Forge. She had the books for sale and she would sign them or she had promo pics for sale as well. She charged $5 for the pics to sign. I asked her if she would allow me to take a photo of her with my 11 year old daughter. She had her sit on her lap for the pic. My daughter was thrilled. We got the pic blown up to an 8x10 and went back the following year. Jeanette was very happy to sign it for FREE. My daughter was even more thrilled. Last year at VF, the men pros were taking pics with the fans and signing things at no charge. They have to be more accommodating to their fans or the fans will desert them.

DG - wishes he could sit on Jeanettes lap

jjinfla
11-01-2003, 10:32 AM
Hey Manlyshot, Diane owes me big time. I have been pounding that idea for the past two years. I even suggested Charlie do it but he was just too stupid to listen.

Because guys like Sid want everything for nothing does not mean that other people won't pay for them. Sid doesn't realize it but he expects be paid for his services too. When he goes to a tournament probably the first thing he looks at is what is the payout. If it's not worth his time he turns around and leaves. Surely he won't play for nothing and give any prize money away to a charity. And when he goes to work he only does so because he gets paid. The checks stop coming in he stops working.

And I bet Diane gets paid for her pictures too. If not now then when people start demanding her pictures she will.

Last night 20-20 did a bit on the pop-a-rotzie, or whatever the spelling is, and showed how they chase the stars and get special pictures of them. They sell them to magazines and scandal sheets like the Globe, Enquirer for the big bucks. One picture can bring $20,000-30,000. And they said they sold one for $100,000. Is the Enquirer dumb to pay this money? Why are the pictures worth that? Because the Enquirer sells a million copies per week and the people want to see those pictures. So Sid, if you had one of these pictures and thought it was only good to wipe your ass with would you still do that if someone was going to pay you big bucks for it? Just shows how stupid you are if you said yes to that question.

Right now Mike Sigel along with Earl Strickland are the top names in pool. So I pay and get them to sign cue balls for me and maybe 20 years down the road my grandkids come over and they see them and I tell them I met Mike or Earl and they were good enough to sign the balls for me. And their eyes get as big as watermellons and say you actually met them? Then you can tell me that I wasted my $50. If so then you guys have no real values in life. Besides, the economy is coming back big time now so I have the money.

I have a picture of former president Grant that I bet every one of you would be willing to pay me $40 for. The detail is so nice in the picture.

I am off to Capone's to watch the big boys. Maybe Mike will drop in and we can talk.

Jake

Scott Lee
11-01-2003, 10:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Check the AZB website homepage for the complete story.

Mike will play in the Mizerak tour.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

This is hilarious! LOL Mike QUIT pro pool because he "couldn't make any $$$ at it!"...attitude? Geez, the guy won 100 pro tournaments! Then he was gonna make a million making cues! Ummmm, nope...didn't work either (surprise?...NOT!)...attitude again? Yep. Now he's gonna come back and play on the Senior Tour (sadly, with it's 2-3 events a year...should be 12+ with all the available players)!

I agree and disagree with Mike's charging such a high fee for an autograph. Having dinner once with him in VF, I listened to him telling how he was buying boxes of cheap CB's for $2 and selling them with an autograph for $50...actually laughing and BRAGGING that he was "gettin' over" (his words) on the fans! Typical egomaniac poolplayer attitude, if you ask me.

Ed is correct...if you don't ask for a fee, you won't get one!...or if you ask for "cheap", that's what you'll get! I'm curious what his "appearance fee" is? Jeanette asks $7500 for 3 hrs., but I don't think she gets it very often (however, even ONCE is pretty good! LOL) It's Mike's arrogant attitude that I find particularly distasteful! It carries over into everything he does. Yes, he is a great talent... one of the best ever. However, that doesn't give him license to be an a$$hole to much of the pool playing public. At best, he seems to be indifferent when 'working' with the public...at worst, outright arrogant! Jake, you had a good experience with him...but the bad ones outweigh the good 10-1, imo. MANY of the top pros (like Buddy) go out of their way (most of the time) to be nice, courteous, and attentive to the fans!

Scott Lee

Sid_Vicious
11-01-2003, 10:38 AM
"So Sid, if you had one of these pictures and thought it was only good to wipe your ass with would you still do that if someone was going to pay you big bucks for it? Just shows how stupid you are if you said yes to that question."

Don't hold back Jake, let us know how you really feel ;-) sid

L.S. Dennis
11-01-2003, 11:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> . So why give it away for free when there are plenty of people who will pay for it. <hr /></blockquote>

This sounds like the reasoning that any good prostitute uses.

Like I said earlier, he has tremendous knowledge of this game and is one of the best straight pool players of all time (although he plays all game extremely well). But becaue of this ego that he carrries with him he's lost a lot of him appeal to many people. Maybe he should take some lessons from Nick Varner who is a perfect gentleman and very approachable to his fans (oddly enough, they'er good friends).

All I can say is that after that exhibition in SF everyone that I talked to, to a person thought the guy was a real jerk!

Rick the stick
11-01-2003, 12:08 PM
I do not see any problem with getting an appearace fee if you can command it and your presense in an event pulls more people who will pay for that fee, if there is a ROI on it, then give it to the guy. Tiger showing up doubles the attendance of a Golf event. They pay him 25 grand to go to a cocktail party for an hour in the evening, that is how they get around that. Paying stars to attend has been going on for over a century. Greenleaf used to get 15% of the gate, when Caras won his 3 world titles, it was down to 10% of the gate. The the gate went away, then the prize money went into the toilet. If a guy wants to make a few bucks signing balls and people will pay it, you should cut him some slack on this. If he was making a million bucks a year which he should be, like every other star in sports, he could be giving things away and signing for free. I think many are being a little harsh on him here. Not every star, can be perfect or live up to your every expectation.

stevelomako
11-01-2003, 05:16 PM
Please tell me when he was talking about the cue balls.....you were so offended by it that you got up and paid your bill and have never spoke to him again!

Did you have enough respect for yourself that you did that?


Steve

cueball1950
11-01-2003, 08:38 PM
Well Rick the Stick. His appearance at the U S Open 14.1 a few years ago did not increase the attendance. And yes he was paid an appearance fee and had all of not only his but his wife's expenses paid for by Blatt Billiards. Blatt was the promoter, He even got mike on a NYC tv show. And attendance was, in my opinion, not to good considering it was held in the BIG APPLE. I believe the rumors were that Blatt lost over 80k on it and said never again. By the way, this was the same tournament where mike snapped one of his custom cues in 2 by accident......................mike

cueball1950
11-01-2003, 08:42 PM
While at the U S Open last September i had one of their programs and got over 100 signatures from most of the players. No refusals. There were glad to sign the program. last year after the celebrity roast at the Open Mike refused to sign my Open program. So what does that tell you. He is no better than any other player. But he is a legend in HIS Own Mind...lol........................mike

L.S. Dennis
11-01-2003, 11:49 PM
In a way Mike Sigel reminds of Frank Sinatra. Both are (were) masters at what they did professionally, but complete jerks when it came to dealing with their fans in public. To bad a little of Efren and Nick couldn't rub off on Sigel in that regard.

jjinfla
11-02-2003, 08:23 AM
Gee Scott I thought you would be above the petty bickering and putting down of people. That should be left to us common folks. Makes you sound like all the people who jumped on FL.

And did you guys hear what your precious Yankees did? Seems someone bought a 1971 Mercedes and thought it would be a great idea to have the whole team autograph the car and then auction it off. So do you know how many bids they got? Absolutely none. Everybody loves a winner, but nobody cares about a loser.

When I went to the Florida Men's Pro Tour yesterday it was a grand old time. Quite a few fans and the players mingling with them. Signing anything. A guy sitting at the bar next to me stopped a kid coming in and asked him if he had his Nick Varner case with him. The kid said it was in the car. The guy said go get it and have Nick sign it. The kid thought, then said, do you think he would? Wont hurt to ask. So he runs out, gets his case, and Nick signs it. The kid is all smiles. Then I see him come back with his Nick Varner stick and Nick signs that too. Then the guy next to me asks the kid if he is going to play with that stick. And the kid says no! I guess he is just going to enjoy it for a while and mom has to go out and buy him a new stick.

And I happened to run into my buddy there, the fledgling cue maker, who also thought I was nuts to have the pros sign some cue balls for me. And lo and behold what do I see but a cue ball in his hand. When I asked about it he sheepishly said that the owner of the billiard supply house where he rents space thought it would be a good idea for the business to have a few cueballs signed by the pros displayed prominently in their shop to impress the paying customers. Usually we go to these events together but he didn't call me and now I know why - he didn't want me to see what he was doing.

He is supposed to be making a stick for John DiToro.

And I did get Nick Varner, Ray Martin and CM Lee to sign balls for me. They would all have signed anything the fans wanted but I really didn't want to make a pest of myself.

See guys, sometimes it does pay to be the squeaky wheel.

And pay attention to the Florida Men's tour because it will be starting up again in January. And with the backing of the Seminoles should really prove to be worthwhile for the men.

This event had 39 players, would have had more but Buddy Hall got his days mixed up and some people were not eligible, and they paid the top 24. The future looks rosy. Good times ahead.

John DiToro is to be complimented on a job well done. And John along with the Seminoles have the experience and understanding of creating a really good, well run men's tour. And the way I see it everything should most likely be in place by the end of 2004. But in the meantime look for some really good tournaments and qualifiers in 2004.

And Rocky, the room owner and player, was happy because he really did a good business. Has about 20 seats with good views overlooking 6 of the tables that went for $20 each and his poor waitress never got a chance to smoke a cigarette she was so busy. And Rocky does serve good food there. Probably loses a buck on every sandwich/meal he serves because he gives you so much.

Jake

bolo
11-02-2003, 10:04 PM
That is one strange post, and very unprofessional. The more I read your posts, the more I think the real Scott begins to show through. The phony Mr. nice guy makes way for the bitter player want-a-be, who can't pass up a chance to put down a real player. I'm beginning to think that Larry may have been right about you all along. Sorry for being so blunt, but considering what you said about Mike, (who I assume is a friend, or were you just name dropping, and he has no idea who you are?) even in not so many words, calling him a failure in his business, I am sure you won't mind me voicing my opinion of you. The fact is, you are the failure, even at what you do regarding trick shots. I doubt we will see you entering any competitions any time soon. You will say, "Oh, it is because I don't want to". Yea, right, you would love to be able to put on your résumé "World trick shot champion". Of course it takes a pair or you know what's to compete. What a phony. Have you ever won anything? Maybe you can tell us the story about beating Keith one more time, since that seems to be the high point of you career. To be honest, I bet I am not the only one on here with a low opinion of you based on some of your posts.

stevelomako
11-02-2003, 10:34 PM
Thanks, you're right!

JimS
11-02-2003, 10:53 PM
I don't see where Scott said so much bad about Mike. He pointed out that Mike had been extremely successful at his playing and cue making careers but complained about Mikes attitude towards his fans.

It seems to be pretty common knowledge that Mike has a pretty arrogant attitude. I don't know him, have never been in his presence so I can't say one way or the other. If he can get $50 for a signed cue ball more power to him. I don't see the sense in bothering anybody anywhere for their autograph.....autographs mean nothing to me, I don't value autographs at all, so I'll not be paying Mike for his autograph.

What I do value is being around a person who treats others with respect and dignity. Scott mentioned Buddy and I did have the extreme pleasure of being around Buddy at the one and only Superman Classic Tournament and he was a very nice person to be around. He, and all the other pros I talked to, treated me...an unknown peon, with great friendliness and respect. I have met Scott on two occasions and know him to be a kind and helpful gentelman who also values other people and treats them with respect...until they show him disrespect. That has been my experience with Scott Lee and I really don't see any reason for the attack on him. But...that's just my opinion....

bolo
11-02-2003, 11:05 PM
Quote
"This is hilarious! LOL Mike QUIT pro pool because he "couldn't make any $$$ at it!"...attitude? Geez, the guy won 100 pro tournaments! Then he was gonna make a million making cues! Ummmm, nope...didn't work either (surprise?...NOT!)."

Doesn't sound like a complement to me, and lets face it, is that the way you talk behind someone back, who is suppose to be a friend and on a forum like this? Scott sounds a little two faced. He is a small man in my opinion.

Scott Lee
11-02-2003, 11:12 PM
bolo...Well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, as am I. No, I would not consider Mike a friend. Do I try to compare my skills to his? No way...never did, never will!
All I did was call a spade, a spade. I said nothing that was not true, and there are plenty of people who know that, both here, on other boards, and in the industry. If Mike didn't have such a giant ego, which, imo, hurts his credibility everywhere, he could certainly be as successful as he wishes.

I have no ego about pool, and don't claim to be anything other than what I am...someone who loves the game for what it is, and has some patience and communication skills, along with some ability to teach it to others. At least I don't brag about feeling good about 'ripping off' people who come looking for me. I charge what I want, and offer a money back guarantee if you don't like what you get. How is that phoney? Am I interested in becoming a 'world trick shot champion'? Nope. I'll leave that to those who do! I shoot trick shots, because they are entertaining, educational, and promote a healthy interest in the sport to many people...in other words, people will pay good money for that kind of entertainment. Am I interested in becoming a 'world-class instructor'? Yes...and to that end, I keep an open mind, and pursue contined higher education about teaching, anywhere and everywhere I can find it.

As far as Mike's business ethics, they speak for themselves. Ask some other prominent cuemakers what they think about Mike and his cues. Ask Nick Varner why he chose to dissolve his partnership with Mike in less than one year? I know why...and you can too, if you want to ask around. Me bitter? Hardly...LOL I do something I love to do, and fortunately I am able to make a nice living at it. I hope Mike can make a comeback and win all the Senior Tour events. He is a great player, and like Earl, you either love him or hate him. That's for each person to make their own judgement call.

As far as Larry goes...well, think what you like. I have never "lied" about him either. The fact is, I got a call Friday from Mark Stoller, owner of Stealth Cues, and told him what Larry had said about his jump cue. He laughed, and was astonished that Larry could be that delusional (his words, not mine). He wasn't even angry...he just said that he felt sorry for FL, and wished he didn't feel like he had to say the things he says.

So...take it for what it's worth bolo...and again, we're all entitled to our opinions. Some of us choose to express them, and some don't. As far as your own 'low opinion' of me...well, that's okay, because you're entitled to that opinion. Ya can't please the whole world, but I'll keep trying anyway! LOL

Scott Lee

bolo
11-02-2003, 11:22 PM
Like I said, unprofessional, just a sad little man, dropping names, trying to sound important. As you say, I am welcome to my opinion. Since I don't know you other then from here, and unless I am an anomaly, it is probably an opinion shared by quite a few others, whether they choose to express it or not.

Scott Lee
11-02-2003, 11:51 PM
bolo...How is pointing out the same things that many others have said (here and many other places), construed as "trying to sound important"? Mike has a GIANT ego...
that has already been established. Is he entitled to it? Sure! He is still one of the best poolplayers ever! Does it help him in trying to accomplish whatever goals he has set for himself concerning pool. That's the million dollar question. My opinion is that it has hurt him, and may continue to, as long as he maintains the alleged public image that he seems to show when given the chance. That's all I said.

At one time, Mike had the most lucrative contract with Brunswick that ANY poolplayer ever had, including Greenleaf, Mosconi, and anybody else. He lost it through his own poor decisions. HE said he quit playing pro pool, because he couldn't make any money at it. I didn't make that up. He went into the cue making biz believing that he could sell $5000 cues, just because HE made them. He found out pretty quickly, that you need more than just a famous name to sell high dollar cues...at least more than just a few. It wasn't my fault that he chose to act that way...he did it on his own. I haven't said anything here that is not public information. I do not consider myself "important", and consequently don't struggle to 'sound' that way. Honestly, I'm sorry if I offended you, Mike, or anyone else...but none of it is made up, nor unknown by others. I think it's more of a case of "if the shoe fits"!

Scott Lee

eg8r
11-03-2003, 06:28 AM
[ QUOTE ]
So I pay and get them to sign cue balls for me and maybe 20 years down the road my grandkids come over and they see them and I tell them I met Mike or Earl and they were good enough to sign the balls for me. <hr /></blockquote> You might as well tell your grandkids the whole story. You happened to be in the same room as these guys. They did not care one hoot about you and only signed your cue ball because you were willing to pay $50 for it. Once the money was handed over they began to forget about you all over again.

It sounds a bit harsh, but most of the time that is the reality of it. You are paying for something that means something to you, so be it. Nothing wrong with that. There will always be people to pay. I just would hate for you to tell your grandchildren that Mike Sigel was such a nice guy that he signed your cue ball for you out of the goodness of his heart.

As far as getting paid for their services....BS. A pro pool player does get paid for their services if they are good enough to finish in the money. Signing a cue ball is not a service.

eg8r

eg8r
11-03-2003, 06:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> "This is hilarious! LOL Mike QUIT pro pool because he "couldn't make any $$$ at it!"...attitude? Geez, the guy won 100 pro tournaments! Then he was gonna make a million making cues! Ummmm, nope...didn't work either (surprise?...NOT!)." <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> Doesn't sound like a complement to me, and lets face it, is that the way you talk behind someone back, who is suppose to be a friend and on a forum like this? Scott sounds a little two faced. He is a small man in my opinion.
<hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote> Bolo, are you so thick headed to believe Scott was belittling Sigel. Those words were straight from Mikes mouth.

My father-in-law was buying a pool table here about a month or so ago. We went up to Mike's store in Winter Garden. Guess what, his hours were printed on the door - Open Mon-Fri 9AM to 3PM...Appointments Sat only. Now, how good do you think his business is going (He used to be open from 9-6 M-F and 10-5 on Sat)?????????? C'mon Bolo, Mike cannot afford to keep the lights on any longer than 6 hours (he can surely afford it, but it is not good business practice to stay open when no one is shopping there) a day for 5 days a week. How is that cue business doing??? Nick moved down here to partner up with Mike, and Nick quickly backs out after less than a year. What does that tell you?????

When we finally had the chance to talk to Mike, my father-in-law (who knows nothing about pool) asked him why he does not play pool professionally anymore. Mike replied, "I cannot make any money." He was bitter that he had to win, if he wanted to make any money. Scott Lee is not saying anything that has not already been said by Mike Sigel or anyone else on this forum.

Bolo the facts are boldly obvious, and the best you can do is call Scott a small man. Mike Sigel is having a tough time in the business world. He ego is not helping him. Oh yeah, Mike will not be an instructor for one young child in Oakland. My father-in-law was sooooo turned off by Mike's attitude at his store that he will be looking for another instructor for his son. Mike has trouble dealing with people, what can you do???

eg8r

eg8r
11-03-2003, 06:58 AM
Jake this is great news about the FL tour. I am very excited to see some of the tourneys next year. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

nhp
11-03-2003, 07:59 AM
Wow, remind me never to voice a slightly negative opinion about Mike Sigel on this board, I might make life-long enemies like that.

ManlyShot
11-03-2003, 08:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>As far as getting paid for their services....BS. A pro pool player does get paid for their services if they are good enough to finish in the money. Signing a cue ball is not a service.<hr /></blockquote>

eg8r, sometimes pool players see their signed cue-balls or other autographed items on eBay and other pool-related websites for sale, and this may be why Mike doesn't want to provide his John Hancock for free. I don't agree with it when it comes to the fans, but I understand the reasoning.

Pro players pay anywhere from $1,500 to $2,500 to compete in week-long venues, sometimes not finishing in the money for long periods of time. Many pro players barely make ends meet after paying for entry fees, travel, hotel, food, gas/airfare, and unforeseen expenses that always arise.

There can only be one winner, and there's a lot of good pro players who aren't realizing a profit from tournament participation, even when they do finish in the money. After you're stuck $20,000 in a few short months, winning a big one brings you back to even.

Of course, there are the exceptions when you think about Johnny Archer winning three in a row. There is only a handful of pro players, sponsored players, who may enjoy a profit, but I can assure you the majority of pro players are stuck big time when it comes to tournament participation.

ManlyShot

stevelomako
11-03-2003, 09:55 AM
Wow Scott, you really are a peach.....

You really like cutting good players down when you can, you really like to name drop alot and you like to talk about people behind their backs.

Lets see....you drop Sigels' name like you're pals (did you leave the table when he said that?)!!!!

Now you're using Varners' name to discredit Sigel!!!!

You mention someone from Stealth Cues calls you (wow!! really??) and you're telling us you told him some [censored] Larry said......you're like a little squealer on the school yard.

You say all you worry about is youself and trying to learn anything and everything about pool from anyone (don't think Mike will help ya there) but I've seen so many times where you post garbage about well known players. WHY WOULD YOU BOTHER TO REPLY IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING NEGITIVE TO SAY?

It really does seem like you have a little bitterness in you that comes out in some of your replies. I know it probly sucks when you're doing a show and people ask...did you know "Minnesota Fats" and you have to pretend and tell them "We were great friends, what a funny guy, I really miss him", then they start asking what Pro players you know and you tell them "[censored] I know them all, we're like this (fingers crossed)".

No EGO!!!! If you don't have some kind of ego in anything you do in life, you'll never be the best. It's what drives people to be better than the next guy. Its what makes each generation better than the one before!!!! Some express it different than others.

You say what a piece of garbage someone is then in the next sentence you hope they win all the events?????? Why?????? Wouldn't you want someone nicer and more ethical to win, or do you write it like that so you don't look bad?????

Stand up and be a man and have respect for yourself and what you believe in.....I guarantee when you were "having dinner with Mike" and he said he was ripping people off by trying to sell the cue balls you didn't say what a piece of [censored] he was right then......did you?????????? So why now????

The bitterness does come out in some of your replies.


Steve Lomako

bolo
11-03-2003, 10:17 AM
You can say those things, my point was, Scott is suppose to be a professional. He just comes off as a jealous jerk by saying such things, even if they are true. Some of what he said was from a private conversation he supposedly had with Mike while having dinner. Now he says Mike is not even a friend of his. Not only does it make Scott look like a two faced rat, but we don't even know if his cue ball story is true since he does not even like Mike anyway and enjoys spreading stories about him. If this stuff is such common knowledge, ask yourself, what is Scott's motive in repeating it then? Scott is a little man trying to make himself seem bigger by tearing someone else down. Scott's comfort zone is in the company of beginners, that is why he likes teaching, you get all that praise from people that think you are great because they don't know any better. (Big fish in a little pond syndrome ) I am sure he has feelings of inferiority when around real players, that is why he would say the kinds of things he does about Mike, ( True of not, doesn't matter ), because he feels inferior, It's a powerful emotion. As far as your story about Mikes store, it is probably true, And although I don't know how it will help me draw the ball better, I doubt you have any motive in telling it.

eg8r
11-03-2003, 10:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
eg8r, sometimes pool players see their signed cue-balls or other autographed items on eBay and other pool-related websites for sale, and this may be why Mike doesn't want to provide his John Hancock for free. I don't agree with it when it comes to the fans, but I understand the reasoning. <hr /></blockquote> I completely agree, and would feel the same if I had done something for free (for a "fan") only to see that person profit from it. I understand all that. I really have no problem with charging for autographs. I firmly believe if people will pay for it, then charge them. The only issue I have is their attitudes towards it. In my dealings with Mike, he did not come across the way you are referring. He came across more as an ego maniac, and I should feel honored to pay him. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif That is the problem. If Mike was as great a person as he thinks he is, he should be getting some of the fees that these baseball players get. I went to a baseball card convention one time and Pete Rose was getting crazy amounts for his autograph.

eg8r

Scott Lee
11-03-2003, 11:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote stevelomako:</font><hr> Wow Scott, you really are a peach.....

You really like cutting good players down when you can, you really like to name drop alot and you like to talk about people behind their backs.

Lets see....you drop Sigels' name like you're pals (did you leave the table when he said that?)!!!!

Now you're using Varners' name to discredit Sigel!!!!

You mention someone from Stealth Cues calls you (wow!! really??) and you're telling us you told him some [censored] Larry said......you're like a little squealer on the school yard.

You say all you worry about is youself and trying to learn anything and everything about pool from anyone (don't think Mike will help ya there) but I've seen so many times where you post garbage about well known players. WHY WOULD YOU BOTHER TO REPLY IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING NEGITIVE TO SAY?

It really does seem like you have a little bitterness in you that comes out in some of your replies. I know it probly sucks when you're doing a show and people ask...did you know "Minnesota Fats" and you have to pretend and tell them "We were great friends, what a funny guy, I really miss him", then they start asking what Pro players you know and you tell them "[censored] I know them all, we're like this (fingers crossed)".

No EGO!!!! If you don't have some kind of ego in anything you do in life, you'll never be the best. It's what drives people to be better than the next guy. Its what makes each generation better than the one before!!!! Some express it different than others.

You say what a piece of garbage someone is then in the next sentence you hope they win all the events?????? Why?????? Wouldn't you want someone nicer and more ethical to win, or do you write it like that so you don't look bad?????

Stand up and be a man and have respect for yourself and what you believe in.....I guarantee when you were "having dinner with Mike" and he said he was ripping people off by trying to sell the cue balls you didn't say what a piece of [censored] he was right then......did you?????????? So why now????

The bitterness does come out in some of your replies.


Steve Lomako <hr /></blockquote>

Steve...I never even intimated that Mike was a friend of mine. I was invited to dinner with another pro, who IS a good friend of mine. There were 8 at the table (including the two pros, and their wives). Nobody made any comment when Mike made his remarks. That kinda says it all, doesn't it?

How does mentioning that Nick was only partners with Mike for a short period, discrediting Mike (or Nick)? Apparently, Nick did not enjoy being in business with Mike. That doesn't mean they're not good friends...just no longer business partners.

Mark Stoller calls me all the time. I'm one of his dealers, and he is making sales calls. We also happen to be good personal friends, and we talk about what's going on in the industry (like we do HERE). He frequently asks me about the CCB. FL made some bold statements about a specific product that were patently false. Is it wrong to point that out? Sorry...but if you want to believe everything FL says, that's your privilege, and your business. Call Mark yourself, and ask him. He is available most anytime, on the phone and through his website. You call it "squealing"...I call it telling the truth! FL has great knowledge about pool, and could choose to share it here, if he felt like it. Actually, he HAS contributed some decent information lately. That kind of info is welcomed here with open arms.

I am interested in teaching. Mike is not. What is the conflict there? Would I take lessons from Mike? Nope. I prefer to spend my time, money and energy learning from better instructors than myself (and I DO)!

When have I posted "garbage about other pro players"? Be specific, and I'll be happy to address your point(s). About Fats...I did know him pretty well. When asked, I always say what I think...that he was a great storyteller, but (imo) not a great player. He did great things for raising the awareness of the game, and for that I am grateful to him. He WAS a very funny man, and a character of the highest order! I know OF most of the pro players. Many of them are long time friends.

As far as "ego" goes...that's a personal interpretation. The only 'ego' I have is to become the best instructor I can be! For me, I don't have be BETTER than you (or anyone) to feel good about what I do, or who I am. I have never claimed to be anything other than a decent player, who loves to share what I know with others. I can enjoy playing a game of pool with beginners or champions, win or lose. Many skilled poolplayers get caught up in the 'ego', and HAVE to beat Joe Champion (or anyone else) before they can be satisfied or happy. That's not me...so sue me! LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I never said Mike Sigel was a "piece of garbage" or a "piece of 'censored'". Please don't put your words in my mouth. You don't know me from Adam. You have never met me, and never seen my program. That is your right, and prerogative. It is not your right to put words in my mouth, and then call me out for it. This is a "discussion board". That's what we are all doing here. It is PUBLIC, available to read anywhere in the world, now and forever, and not behind anyone's back.

I DO have a great deal of respect for myself (and most others too, until they show me differently), and do stand up for what I believe in, Steve. I voice my opinions when I choose to (sometimes to my own regret /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif)! It sure sounds like you're the bitter one here...not me!

Scott Lee

Voodoo Daddy
11-03-2003, 01:51 PM
I read every post very carefully and came to one conclusion. The point was very well missed that one of pools best players EVER, is returning to the game he OWNED for years. I am not a Sigel fan, personally I hope he goes two and out after his harpooning of his cue during his temper tantrum at the 14.1 tournament in NYC a couple of years ago but thats my thing. A champion should lose as gracefully as he wins...but he brings serious talent to the table and that I respect.

Voodoo~~~will go sweat the action Thursday, GO NICK VARNER!!

eg8r
11-03-2003, 02:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
A champion should lose as gracefully as he wins...but he brings serious talent to the table and that I respect.
<hr /></blockquote> Very well stated. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif I am very excited at getting the chance to watch him play again. I have never seen him in a big tournament except on video, so I am quite excited.

eg8r

jjinfla
11-03-2003, 06:04 PM
Okay, here is the true skinny on my collecting and paying for cueballs.

Jan 19, 2002 I went to Capones to watch the women play and they had some stars there. Ewa, Vivian, Belinda, Jennifer, Charlie Williams were all there and Rocky was selling cue balls for $8 and the women, and Charlie, would sign them. So I bought a half dozen, not really being a collector, and not really knowing what I would do with them, but mainly just to support Rocky, the room owner. Then when I got home I put the date on them so that I would always know when this happened. Then whenever I looked at them on my shelf it would remind me of actually meeting and talking to these women and Charlie Williams. Then I bought my own cue balls and would ask the guys to sign them when I met them. And they would.

The next one I paid money for was a signed 9-ball by Johnny Archer. Who would of thought? And I bought that one just because Mike has it for sale on his website. I figured Mike provides this website for us the least I can do is buy something he sells. Have any of you thought to do that? Or are you of the type that everything should be free? It looks nice but has no real value to me because it does not bring any memories of my meeting Archer. To me that is all a signed cueball means - my meeting the star.

And I met Mike Sigel At the Patriot Cup and when I asked him to sign a cueball he was almost apologetic saying he really can't, that he gets $50 to sign them. But he did sign the flyer I had and was very nice about it. You have to remember that if he did sell cueballs to men in the business world for $50 and then later they found out he was doing it for nothing then they would not like it. So I can understand why he won't sign one. And I have absolutely no problem with that.

This last weekend I had my little bag with a couple of cueballs and asked Ray Martin if he would sign one. I have asked him several times and kidded him about it before. And he said no. I said how much? He said $25. So I gave him the money. I can afford it that is for sure and Ray does have bills to pay and is not really making a lot of money on the tour lately anyway. And I just think I am paying him for all the pleasure he has given me since I moved to florida. When I was younger I used to piss away more money than that every night and got nothing for it.

Any way I also got Nick Varner and CM Lee to sign balls. And John A. DiToro told me he would be glad to sign a ball for me. Now that man is an artist. He really took time to make an elaborate signature. And he told me that all the guys here will be glad to sign stuff for the fans. John is a class act, and not just because he was nice to me. I sure do wish him well with his tour.

As far as seeing Cueballs on Ebay a person would have to be nuts to buy a signed anything there. Next time you see an ad on Ebay make sure you look and see what the bid was on the item. Most I have seen received no bids. But I wouldn't pay $5 for one there.

So, call me nuts, odd, excentric, it is my money and I can do with it as I damn well please, thank you.

And all the guys on the Florida tour seem to be very friendly and would talk to anyone who approached them. Even the jerks. You know Florida is famous for its horses. But it also has a whole bunch of jackasses - a lot are of two legged kind.

And Danny Harriman kept playing checkers on the machine next to me and every time he made a move I would tell him he was in trouble. Then in a little while he would say - you're right I'm in trouble. But maybe it relaxed him because he won the tournament.

I was watching Mario Cruz play Troy Frank for 3rd place and they were hill-hill with Mario running the balls. Five balls left. All in the open. 3 ball in the corner. He made the 3 and brought the CB back to get shape on the 6 in the side pocket on the same side as the 3. The CB kept going and just dropped in the opposite side pocket. Mario put his head on the rail and just stayed there for a minute. That was a $400 mistake with the possibility of playing for 2nd. I sure wouldn't approach a player after a tragic event like that. But some people would, and if they got rebuffed, they would call the player a jerk, when in reality they are the jerk.

Not many players would be as composed as Mario was.

Jake

dg-in-centralpa
11-03-2003, 06:49 PM
Bolo - Two years ago at the PA. State 8 Ball Championship, Allen Hopkins entered the tournament and did not get an appearance fee. If he did, it was not advertised anywhere that he was going to be there. After the NY 14.1 tourny, I don't remember if it was BD or Pool and Billiard, did a full article on Mike because he only won $100 for where he placed. He complained because his "Lifestyle" is much higher than most other pros, so he needs more money to live it. At the time, he would not consider anything with less than $100,000 top prize.
I'm not critical of Mike's abilities or his place among the "Greats" of the game, only his attitude and ego. If he could be more approachable and down to earth, it would be in his best interests. A fan will get one or two items signed. A dealer will get three or more. This is where I draw the line between a fan and a dealer who will put something on ebay.

DG - a former dealer of autographs and rare items

ManlyShot
11-03-2003, 07:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr>And all the guys on the Florida tour seem to be very friendly and would talk to anyone who approached them.<hr /></blockquote>

Jake, speaking of Mike Sigel, I just got a call from a friend who is at the Seniors Tournament in Florida, and he said so far, they have 70 players signed up and there are more still arriving.

Mike Sigel is going to have his hands full with this roster, but I do wish him the best of luck. Tough action in Florida these days.

ManlyShot

stevelomako
11-03-2003, 09:40 PM
You know, I was going to reply to alot of what you said but evidently you read but don't comprehend anything someone says, including yourself.

So I'm just going to reply to one thing:

You talk about me putting words into YOUR mouth, LOL. YOU show ME where I ever said I believed ONE thing Fast Larry ever said. You're a bigger GOOFBALL than he is then. LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Go on, I don't have that many post's to go through. Why you originally added a comment about that idiot anyway is beyond me. WHY DID YOU? It had NOTHING to do with the thread. SERIOUSLY WHY???

Steve

Barbara
11-03-2003, 10:03 PM
DG,

I just remember one time working the "front lines" at the Super Billiard Expo (at the front gate, that is) and Sigel had a booth not 10 feet from the gate. A kid asked him to sign a cueball and Mike said he would do it for $50.

Geez.

Barbara

#### leonard
11-04-2003, 07:47 AM
Barb con men use kids to get autographs,baseballs signed etc. Unless you know the father I have to give Mike the nod. Was his booth free?

I have known Mike since he was 12/13 his later personna is new to me. His Rochester role model Irving Crane was no public relations wizard.####

Billy
11-04-2003, 08:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> That is one strange post, and very unprofessional. The more I read your posts, the more I think the real Scott begins to show through. The phony Mr. nice guy makes way for the bitter player want-a-be, who can't pass up a chance to put down a real player. I'm beginning to think that Larry may have been right about you all along. Sorry for being so blunt, but considering what you said about Mike, (who I assume is a friend, or were you just name dropping, and he has no idea who you are?) even in not so many words, calling him a failure in his business, I am sure you won't mind me voicing my opinion of you. The fact is, you are the failure, even at what you do regarding trick shots. I doubt we will see you entering any competitions any time soon. You will say, "Oh, it is because I don't want to". Yea, right, you would love to be able to put on your résumé "World trick shot champion". Of course it takes a pair or you know what's to compete. What a phony. Have you ever won anything? Maybe you can tell us the story about beating Keith one more time, since that seems to be the high point of you career. To be honest, I bet I am not the only one on here with a low opinion of you based on some of your posts. <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

griffith_d
11-04-2003, 12:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> That is one strange post, and very unprofessional. The more I read your posts, the more I think the real Scott begins to show through. The phony Mr. nice guy makes way for the bitter player want-a-be, who can't pass up a chance to put down a real player. I'm beginning to think that Larry may have been right about you all along. Sorry for being so blunt, but considering what you said about Mike, (who I assume is a friend, or were you just name dropping, and he has no idea who you are?) even in not so many words, calling him a failure in his business, I am sure you won't mind me voicing my opinion of you. The fact is, you are the failure, even at what you do regarding trick shots. I doubt we will see you entering any competitions any time soon. You will say, "Oh, it is because I don't want to". Yea, right, you would love to be able to put on your résumé "World trick shot champion". Of course it takes a pair or you know what's to compete. What a phony. Have you ever won anything? Maybe you can tell us the story about beating Keith one more time, since that seems to be the high point of you career. To be honest, I bet I am not the only one on here with a low opinion of you based on some of your posts. <hr /></blockquote>

bolo

It is a shame that opinions of people on this forum are totally based upon posts on the forum,...but it has happened again.

Now you have to realize that people now have formed opinions of you upon your posts on this forum.

Griff

Wally_in_Cincy
11-04-2003, 12:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr>
blah blah blah<hr /></blockquote>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy:</font><hr> /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

So much for original thought.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-04-2003, 12:26 PM
bolo,

I think you're being a little tough on Scott for simply voicing his opinion. That's what we're here for right?

I have no reason to doubt Scott's story about what happened at VF. He told the same story in 2000 right after it happened.

And since he posted it here I'm sure he would have no problem telling Mike that man to man. After all he does post under his real name, unlike some, Mr....uh..."bolo" /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Chris in NC
11-04-2003, 01:18 PM
Barbara, we took a bunch of old P&amp;B &amp; B&amp;D magazine covers to Valley Forge a couple years ago to have the pros sign for Drayton and/or for Family Billiards. When my son went up to Mike at his booth and asked him to sign the 6-7 year old magazine with him on the cover, he gladly did so. It is now prominently displayed in our poolroom with all the rest.

As far as signing cue balls, I can understand that it is simply not good business for someone of Mike's stature to sign them for some people for free, if you've previously charged others for the same. I don't know why that's such a problem for some here to understand. If other pros choose to sign a ball for free, that's their decision and perfectly fine, but don't use it to make Mike look bad.

I help Allison Fisher send out autographed items people order from her website - balls, photos, posters, etc. The prices are very, very reasonable and not hardly worth the trouble we go through to process the orders and get them out - for example autographed balls for $15 including shipping, signed 8x11's for $10 including shipping, personalized 8x11's for $20 including shipping.

Quite often we get letters from individuals requesting an autographed picture or ball, often including stories explaining their hardship situations and how much they admire Allison, etc., etc., but no mention of payment - just hoping the she'll send them something just out of the kindness of her heart. They have to get the address from the online store order page, so they know good and well that we charge for these items. Although she could afford it, it would certainly NOT be fair to fill these orders along with the orders from paid customers, so they are discarded. I hope that some of you wouldn't consider that to be greedy and insensitive. - Chris in NC

bolo
11-04-2003, 01:30 PM
It does not matter what opinion you have of me, I am not in the billiard business as Scott is. Scott is suppose to be some kind of professional and bad mouthing another professional on a forum like this shows very little class. Even if others want to do it, it is not his place to do it, even if true. That was my point, he must have other motives for telling the story. He comes off like a low class little weasel in my opinion. Like I said, jealousy is a powerful emotion.

jjinfla
11-04-2003, 02:27 PM
Very well said Chris.

When pool rooms display various items that pros sign it helps the pros become common household names. The more things the pros sign the more popular they become and the more interest in them they generate. It is actually good business sense to do so.

The only room where I have seen cueballs displayed is Planet 9-ball in Tampa. He has a display case with several cueballs in it.

Allison Fisher sure isn't getting rich if you guys are selling signed cueballs for only $15 including postage. But it sure will make a lot of people happy. So how do I get one? IM me your address please.

And I just heard on the radio that some charity or other held a fund raiser and Bill Clinton was gracious enough to appear and give a talk. But it seems that after the charity paid Clinton his $100,000 speaking fee the fund raising event lost $2,000. I wonder if clinton will give back some of his fee?

Jake

jjinfla
11-04-2003, 02:36 PM
Manly Shot,

I didn't know that there were that many quality pool players over 50 in Florida. But there is a bunch of money added in this one so it has everyone's attention.

My friend went down there but lately I think I am the only one he can beat. He has great practices but falls apart during the tournaments. Makes really stupid blunders at critical times. Maybe this time everything will fall into place for him. Sure hope he doesn't draw Sigel first. LOL.

I'll bet he isn't the only one wishing that.

Jake

Rick the stick
11-04-2003, 04:20 PM
Steve the reason Scott Lee added FL to his attack is what else has the guy ever done but trash FL from the beginning.
You may not like the guy, but as least he signed his name to what he said which is more than what we can say for bolo.
Fl came in on this forum in the beginning and scott lee teed off on him, did not want another instructor taking business away and fl was pulling his customers. Fl told you then what Lee was like and none of you believed him.
He said Lee has never ever entered a trick shot contest and cannot beat any one in that business including FL.
He said Lee is a good beginner teacher who should stick to teaching beginners. When he did that, Lee got up all his pals and began cutting his throat behind his back. I think there was some old bad blood there also. Something about fl challenging him to play him in 97 at the Hopkins and Lee was too chicken to tee it up. I forgot what that story was all about, heard it once. As far as Lee saying FL lied about being in Stoller's office in Chicago and giving him his jump cue and turning over all of his secrets on what made it work, Lee said call him up. Well I did and it turns out Lee is quoting out of context, twisting things around to smear the guy one more time. It turns out, FL did do all of that. He did not lie, Scott Lee did. That should tell you something right there sports fans.

All of these threads that go up all the time about my great lesson I just took with Scott Lee. Most don't know the reason for them is Scott pays the guy to put that up by giving the lesson free to the guy for the free phoney ad. I know, he offered the deal to me and I passed. All that phoney praise he bought and paid for to con newbies into booking lessons with him. The guy who taught him the business was jack white was the biggest con to ever hit pool. He made the payoff to get new business an art form.
Bolo may be a little mean and cruel sometimes and I do not like the guy, but he has hit the nail on the head on Lee, just read what the guy wrote, there the real Lee is clearly exposed in his own words. Does Bolo tell the truth, he say's he is not in the billiards business but I can assure you he was working in a booth at the BCA trade show this year. I think it should only be fair that if a bolo is going to tee off on a Scott Lee, right or wrong about what he is saying, he ought to have the guts to tell us who he is and what his motive is for his comments. I think bolo is nothing but a bully, he no longer has fl to kick around, so it makes him feel good to beat up somebody new. Some of you boys need to go get a prescription for some valiums and chill out.

I already posted earlier my feelings about sigel, you are all being too hard on a great player. I feel you are picking on the guy unfairly. Yes he has an ego problem, you all just need to learn to deal with it.
The guy is an obvious genius, sometimes the line between a genius and the village idiot is a thin line. Focus on the fact mike is one of the top 5 greatest players of the 20th century, and any one that great should not be dragged thru the mud on any forum, you all should afford him a little more respect that the man is due. This is an amazing thread, it appears some of you really like to kick a dog when he is down. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

tateuts
11-04-2003, 05:37 PM
Fast Larry,

Oops I mean, "Rick the Schtick".

Reading your posts is like looking at a photograph of your face, Larry, I just simply recognize it. Your thought patterns are so individualistic you can't possibly hide.

Let me just say it's not nice to bad-mouth Bolo and Scott. Very unprofessional, especially pretending to be someone else. True, Scott stated his honest opinion (god forbid) and Bolo has been a little touchy lately, but they'll recover.

God knows I've had my moments here, that's for sure!

Chris

Ps. I just booked a video session with Scott Lee at my house in two weeks. I'll see if Scott will give me a discount if I tout his services!

Rick the stick
11-04-2003, 05:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> Fast Larry,

Oops I mean, "Rick the Schtick".

Reading your posts is like looking at a photograph of your face, Larry, I just simply recognize it. Your thought patterns are so individualistic you can't possibly hide.

Let me just say it's not nice to bad-mouth Bolo and Scott. Very unprofessional, especially pretending to be someone else. True, Scott stated his honest opinion (god forbid) and Bolo has been a little touchy lately, but they'll recover.

God knows I've had my moments here, that's for sure!

Chris

Ps. I just booked a video session with Scott Lee at my house in two weeks. I'll see if Scott will give me a discount if I tout his services! <hr /></blockquote>


If you booked a lesson in 2 weeks and you are not getting it free you are really a chump. Everyone else on the board got theirs free, all you got to do is ask for it and post later how great the guy is. Its one hell of a deal.

Why is it every time somebody says something about the golden boy, you always blame fl. Scott Lee sits back playing good cop and he has the guys he gives the free lessons to, to go on and trash the offender and play bad cop. This routine by now should be obvious to a blind man. Dont deflect away from the issues here, why do not you address them, or is it too scary to imagine, they could be true. I am not fl, that guy has not been on this board for a long time stupid. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ras314
11-04-2003, 06:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr>

All of these threads that go up all the time about my great lesson I just took with Scott Lee. Most don't know the reason for them is Scott pays the guy to put that up by giving the lesson free to the guy for the free phoney ad. I know, he offered the deal to me and I passed. All that phoney praise he bought and paid for to con newbies into booking lessons with him. <hr /></blockquote>

Well darn! Scott didn't offer me that deal. But he does offer no charge if a student thinks the lesson was not worth while.

mike_in_iowa
11-04-2003, 06:07 PM
hey that's the same deal I got and I set him up in my town with many students. I didn't get anything for free. Scott I am going to have to talk to you in January when you come back thru.



mike athens ( my real name as always)

tateuts
11-04-2003, 06:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> If you booked a lesson in 2 weeks and you are not getting it free you are really a chump. <hr /></blockquote>

I was actually referred to Scott by an instructor who was too busy to fit me in. You might have heard of him. His name is Max Eberle.

Chris

stevelomako
11-04-2003, 06:31 PM
Well after reading the post's after my last one......the you know what's gettin a little deep. Hopefully this is the last post in the thread, it's definately mine.

Scott: differences aside, you do seem ok to argue with, later.

Steve Lomako

jjinfla
11-04-2003, 07:35 PM
Miz's tour now has 75 people entered.

When was the last time you saw this many men enter a tournament? Not counting the US Open.

The brackets will be on AZB later tonight.

Jake

bigdawg
11-04-2003, 10:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Miz's tour now has 75 people entered.

When was the last time you saw this many men enter a tournament? Not counting the US Open.

The brackets will be on AZB later tonight.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>


Hey Jin, that's amazing information, 75, holy cow. You know when golf came out with the mens sr tour, it became more popular than the youngins tour. Trevino that year won more money than Norman on the regular tour. There is no reason why that could not repeat in pool as well.

bluewolf
11-05-2003, 04:54 AM
I am glad that Mike Sigel is coming back. I have always heard that he is arrogant, but if the public perceives him as 'famous', and more exposure in the media is generated for pool, to me it is worth putting up with a 'personality'.

Scott- I do not know anything about any free lessons. I do know that instructors in other areas including pool do barter for their services from time to time. I certainly did pay for my lessons and have said good things here about you. You never asked me to do this, I did because I benefitted from the lessons and found you to be a fun person.

To Bolo- I thought that your comments to Scott were way below the belt. I respect your opinion,just thought it was a bit 'flamy'. Of course, when Scott said the things he did, he did expose himself to being attacked. Many times I have benefitted from your posts so I certainly do have nothing against you.Sometimes I will be playing or thinking about pool and something you have said here will pop into my head.

As a professional,however, I do think that entering into these types of enterchanges does nothing but hurt you, Scott, professionally. As much as I like you and have benefitted from lessons (3 in one year of pool), I do think it is unprofessional to blast another professional on a pool forum.

Quite a few professionals have gone away and do not post here. As much as I love CCB and have learned a lot here, it does not take a rocket scientist to figure this one out.

Love ya all, really. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Laura

Scott Lee
11-05-2003, 08:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> Steve the reason Scott Lee added FL to his attack is what else has the guy ever done but trash FL from the beginning. Fl came in on this forum in the beginning and scott lee teed off on him, did not want another instructor taking business away and fl was pulling his customers.

He said Lee has never ever entered a trick shot contest and cannot beat any one in that business including FL.
He said Lee is a good beginner teacher who should stick to teaching beginners. When he did that, Lee got up all his pals and began cutting his throat behind his back.

I think there was some old bad blood there also. Something about fl challenging him to play him in 97 at the Hopkins and Lee was too chicken to tee it up. I forgot what that story was all about, heard it once.

As far as Lee saying FL lied about being in Stoller's office in Chicago and giving him his jump cue and turning over all of his secrets on what made it work, Lee said call him up. Well I did and it turns out Lee is quoting out of context, twisting things around to smear the guy one more time. It turns out, FL did do all of that. He did not lie, Scott Lee did. That should tell you something right there sports fans.

All of these threads that go up all the time about my great lesson I just took with Scott Lee. Most don't know the reason for them is Scott pays the guy to put that up by giving the lesson free to the guy for the free phoney ad. I know, he offered the deal to me and I passed. All that phoney praise he bought and paid for to con newbies into booking lessons with him.
<hr /></blockquote>

OK...THAT'S IT Larry! Cuesticks at 20 paces, at dawn! This will be a duel to the death! ROTFLMAO

HUH? Me taking students away from FL? LOL You MUST be kidding...or nuts! Can you guys believe this? LMAO
FL: "Only take lessons from ONE instructor...ME!"
Scott: "Take lessons from everyone and anyone you can!" If that's taking work away from FL...ummm, gosh, I'm guilty! LOL

You should know, there are always two sides to any story. Since you apparently "can't remember" the story about V.F.,
FL and me, maybe you should check it out in the archives!
Your side of it definitely, EXACTLY, mirrors FL's! Hmmmmm...you even use the same verbage. Hmmmmm, again! I think Wally's hitting the mark again, or at least very close to it! LOL

I've never met you, talked to you, or corresponded with you. However, I will make the SAME offer to you.
Take a lesson, and THEN you can really trash me! LOL...
and you might get it for FREE! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Who are you again?

Gee, if I am doing all these "free" lessons just for the publicity, I must be crazy! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif There are several posters here, who are definitely not beginners, and have taken lessons, and posted about them. You must have missed those, huh?

BTW, Rick...Mark didn't mention that you called! Any guess as to why?...besides the fact that you DIDN'T call? LOL
Otherwise, you'd know what he told Larry yesterday! A hint...it was NOT that I lied about anything! LOL

Scott Lee ~ goes by my REAL FULL NAME

Kato
11-05-2003, 01:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> If you booked a lesson in 2 weeks and you are not getting it free you are really a chump. Everyone else on the board got theirs free, all you got to do is ask for it and post later how great the guy is. Its one hell of a deal.

This is a complete load of crap. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Kato~~~a Scott Lee paying customer /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Fred Agnir
11-05-2003, 02:02 PM
Fast Rick first saz:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> I already posted earlier my feelings about sigel, you are all being too hard on a great player. I feel you are picking on the guy unfairly. <hr /></blockquote>

Then goes on to say:

[ QUOTE ]
Yes he has an ego problem <hr /></blockquote>

What is that? Picking on him fairly? You think Mike Sigel would be all happy and nice to read what you wrote about him? I'd think he would say that you are a SUCKER PUNCHER, getting in your cheap shots at pros who can't come here and defend themselves. Shame on you.

Fred &lt;~~~~ tra la la, fiddle dee dee

Rick the stick
11-05-2003, 06:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> Fast Rick first saz:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> I already posted earlier my feelings about sigel, you are all being too hard on a great player. I feel you are picking on the guy unfairly. <hr /></blockquote>

Then goes on to say:

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Yes he has an ego problem <hr /></blockquote>

What is that? Picking on him fairly? You think Mike Sigel would be all happy and nice to read what you wrote about him? I'd think he would say that you are a SUCKER PUNCHER, getting in your cheap shots at pros who can't come here and defend themselves. Shame on you.

Fred &lt;~~~~ tra la la, fiddle dee dee <hr /></blockquote>

For crying out loud Fred, if you read my two posts, you will see I was one of the few people who had the guts to come to Mikes defense. Now you are picking on me because I said he had an ego, yes Fred, he did, and if you ever got as good as he did and won 100 events, you would have one too. Damn near all of the great players in history had an ego. What about Mosconi, there was an ego.
I said Mike had an ego and you all should get used to it and live with it. Fred, you are really taking me out of context and what I said just to pick on me. Fred, don't you like Mike, are you jealous he can play circles around you? What's your problem with dealing with the great ones. I will always stand in Mikes defense, do not rake a great thru the board mud, he does not deserve that, did I not say that also? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

TomBrooklyn
11-05-2003, 06:54 PM
What is the average and highest price a Mike Siegel signed cueball has sold for on the secondary market?
TomBk

cueball1950
11-05-2003, 10:34 PM
lets just let this post die a natural death. everybody, including myself. has their own opinion of mike. so lets just let it go..........................................mike

Rick the stick
11-06-2003, 12:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> What is the average and highest price a Mike Siegel signed cueball has sold for on the secondary market?
TomBk <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Tom, what's happin in Brooklyn. Say a Sigel ball sells for $75, you pay Mike $50, you can still sell if for a 50% profit, not bad. Hang on to it, it's price will go up. The problem is these guys want everything free.

When a guy like Mike tries to make a buck, they get mad and then try to smear him. He has a right to make a buck and sell cue balls for $50 all day long. If you don't like that, don't buy his ball. I think the pro's should sign autographs free. I understand their postion on the balls, most of them end up on ebay and they get nothing for that.

They deserve a piece of the action. Why can't they wet their beak here? The ones that will not sign your cue ball but will sell you their cue ball signed for a fair market price are just being smart business people. Any thing any hall of famer signs becomes valuable.

Popcorn
11-06-2003, 01:19 AM
What the deal really is, and I saw this with my own eyes, is. I saw Nick Varner signing a box of about 50 balls for a dealer. I don't know what the dealer paid Nick, but after being paid by a dealer, it would not be very ethical for the player now to begin signing balls for someone else for free. It would not be fair to the dealer who now has to sell the balls to make a profit. The players have put themselves in an difficult position with the fan, but they should not sign anything they have signed for a dealer who paid them, such as a ball, for nothing. It would not be right.

TomBrooklyn
11-06-2003, 03:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>after being paid by a dealer, it would not be very ethical for the player now to begin signing balls for someone else for free. <hr /></blockquote> I don't necessarily agree Popcorn. A dealer can sell those balls to fans who do not have the opportunity or means to see the pro player in person or find it more convenient to get a signed ball delivered to them.

A fan who commits his time and money to travel to a tournament or other pool event is already supporting the venue, the promoter, the pool industry in general, and directly or indirectly the pro-players. If then he finds himself in a position to meet a pro-player in person, and he expresses his admiration for that player by asking for an autograph on a cue ball, I think it's tacky for the pro to deny the request because the pro is trying to create a higher market value by intentionally limiting the supply. I wouldn't expect a pro to spend unlimited time standing around honoring autograph requests, but feel to offer to sign a poster but not a cueball is tacky.

The pro-player may lose some fans or garner ill that way, which ironically may reduce the demand and therefore any monetary value an autographed cueball may have or will hold someday.

TomBk

pooldaddy9
11-06-2003, 06:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr>after being paid by a dealer, it would not be very ethical for the player now to begin signing balls for someone else for free. <hr /></blockquote> I don't necessarily agree Popcorn. A dealer can sell those balls to fans who do not have the opportunity or means to see the pro player in person or find it more convenient to get a signed ball delivered to them.

A fan who commits his time and money to travel to a tournament or other pool event is already supporting the venue, the promoter, the pool industry in general, and directly or indirectly the pro-players. If then he finds himself in a position to meet a pro-player in person, and he expresses his admiration for that player by asking for an autograph on a cue ball, I think it's tacky for the pro to deny the request because the player is trying to create a higher market value by intentionally limiting the supply. I wouldn't expect a pro to spend unlimited time standing around honoring autograph requests, but to offer to sign a poster but not a cueball is tacky.

The player may lose some fans or garner ill feelings that way, which ironically may reduce the demand and therefore any monetary value an autographed cueball may have or will hold anyway.

TomBk <hr /></blockquote>


TAP TAP TAP

#### leonard
11-06-2003, 07:03 AM
Tom I have no idea I am not into the secondary market. This is an interesting side. I played Irving Crane at Wolfert Roost CC in Albany. There was a dinner before the game at which Albany Billiard Ball gave Irv and I a cueball with our initals in the ball and asked us not to publize it.
They might have created an after market with that idea. ####

Popcorn
11-06-2003, 09:50 AM
Like it or not, that is the trap the players have put themselves in by accepting money from dealers. when it comes to something like a cue ball, they can't be sure it is going to be a momento. Take what I said about Nick. Lets say he got $750. to sing the 50 balls (I don't know I am making up that figure). That is $15. per ball. If he now began signing every ball stuck in his face for nothing, trust me they will start turning up on ebay and since they were done for free, the sellers would take whatever they got for them destroying the market. You can see what happened to the Bungee cue. They were $99.00, then dealers began selling them on ebay for as cheap as $39.00 with the average price around $59.00. If you have a brick and mortar store with rent insurance and so on, and carry Bungee cues, you can't sell them for $10.00 over cost, you would just stop carrying the cue. In fact, if I were Bungee, I would not be happy with those cyber dealers that sell my product for next to nothing just because they have no overhead and will settle for any small profit. When they are done, they have driven the value of what you produce down to nothing.

pooltchr
11-06-2003, 10:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> In fact, if I were Bungee, I would not be happy with those cyber dealers that sell my product for next to nothing just because they have no overhead and will settle for any small profit. When they are done, they have driven the value of what you produce down to nothing. <hr /></blockquote>

Tap Tap Tap! But not just Bungee. Any cue manufacturer should keep a close watch on the internet. There are a lot of cues out there listed at just a little above wholesale cost. Cue sales for the pro shop owners who don't do a lot of volume are finding it very hard to afford to keep many of these cues in stock any more. The small retailers are going to disappear if this gets much worse.

Rich R.
11-06-2003, 11:02 AM
It may be easy for players to please most people.

When signing balls for dealer, the player should just sign his name. A normal autograph. The dealer could resell it to anyone.

When signing balls for a fan, or someone who claims to be a fan, personalize it. The player could write, "Mike, best wishes, Joe Pro", of something to that effect. For a true fan, this would make it special. From the little I have heard about selling autographed stuff on ebay, this would greatly reduce the appeal.

Maybe, someone who collects and/or deals in this sort of stuff, can jump in with their opinion on this. I do neither and I have just hit the end of my expertise. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Popcorn
11-06-2003, 11:46 AM
You are exactly right. Sign only personalized autographs. If someone says they just want your name, don't sign it. I have a lot of Mosconi autographs maybe a hundred or more. I got stuff signed every time I saw him. Books, pictures and so on. I wish now they were not personalized. I sold one picture on ebay and got $35. for it but I know if it did not have my name on it, it would have brought a little more. The guy who bought it had my same first name by the way. I am sure that is why he bought it.

Paul_Mon
11-06-2003, 01:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Popcorn:</font><hr> You are exactly right. Sign only personalized autographs. If someone says they just want your name, don't sign it. I have a lot of Mosconi autographs maybe a hundred or more. I got stuff signed every time I saw him. Books, pictures and so on. I wish now they were not personalized. I sold one picture on ebay and got $35. for it but I know if it did not have my name on it, it would have brought a little more. The guy who bought it had my same first name by the way. I am sure that is why he bought it. <hr /></blockquote>


I envy you for having all those Mosconi signed treasures. I'd still want something with his signature on it even if it was addressed to someone else. If you want to give me something I'd be willing to legally change my name to yours.

Paul Mon~~~~~soon to be Popcorn Mon

Fred Agnir
11-06-2003, 01:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr>
Now you are picking on me because I said he had an ego, yes Fred, he did, and if you ever got as good as he did and won 100 events, you would have one too. Damn near all of the great players in history had an ego. What about Mosconi, there was an ego.
I said Mike had an ego and you all should get used to it and live with it. Fred, you are really taking me out of context and what I said just to pick on me. Fred, don't you like Mike, are you jealous he can play circles around you? What's your problem with dealing with the great ones. I will always stand in Mikes defense, do not rake a great thru the board mud, he does not deserve that, did I not say that also? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote> It's not about me or your dumbass strawman arguments. It's about you being a hypocrite. Get it? Say all you want. You made good points in Mike's defense. Then you cut in on him with the ego comment. That's not about me. It's about you. You're a hypocrite, and you lose credibility. If you can't see that, then I suggest you take your blinders off.

Fred &lt;~~~ glad Rick didn't understand a thing. No surprise.

RailbirdJAM
11-06-2003, 03:44 PM
Rick the Stick posts to Fred Agnir: "I said Mike had an ego and you all should get used to it and live with it. Fred, you are really taking me out of context and what I said just to pick on me. Fred, don't you like Mike, are you jealous he can play circles around you? What's your problem with dealing with the great ones. I will always stand in Mikes defense, do not rake a great thru the board mud, he does not deserve that, did I not say that also?"

Fred responds to Rick the Stick: "It's not about me or your dumbass strawman arguments. It's about you being a hypocrite. Get it? Say all you want. You made good points in Mike's defense. Then you cut in on him with the ego comment. That's not about me. It's about you. You're a hypocrite, and you lose credibility. If you can't see that, then I suggest you take your blinders off."

Fred posts on 10/1/2003: "What else do you want to hear? Keith was loud in all of his matches. He distracted other tables, and obviously distracted his opponents...Unless there's a hard line rule on the board, then he has free reign to continue."

Fred signs off on another post on 10/1/2003: "Fred &lt;~~~ praising Keith."

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif I don't mean to take the comment "all of his matches" out of context, but, Fred, you weren't at all of Keith's matches.

Fred posts on 10/27/2003: "Keith, if you're reading, your break speed for that rack as it was called out was 16.2 mph. The slowest one of the day, as I don't remember them once calling out a speed less than 17 mph."

I don't mean to take the break speed comment out of context, but it was not the slowest one of the day.

Popcorn
11-06-2003, 04:24 PM
I think some people feel funny about asking. I remember being at the US open straight pool tournament one year seeing Steve Cook going around getting all the players autographs and he was in the tournament. It sounds now like you would be afraid to ask, for fear of being insulted. Mosconi for a few years worked for I think, Crystal Leisure and he would be at the BCA show. He would sign autographs all day, so there is no shortages of Mosconi autographs around. I would get a few every day when I would be there.

Fred Agnir
11-06-2003, 06:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RailbirdJAM:</font><hr>
Fred posts on 10/1/2003: "What else do you want to hear? Keith was loud in all of his matches. He distracted other tables, and obviously distracted his opponents...Unless there's a hard line rule on the board, then he has free reign to continue."

Fred signs off on another post on 10/1/2003: "Fred &lt;~~~ praising Keith."

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif I don't mean to take the comment "all of his matches" out of context, but, Fred, you weren't at all of Keith's matches.<hr /></blockquote> I don't know why you want to make this a Fred vs. Keith/Jen thing, but if you don't mean to take the comment "all of his matches" out of context, then don't. Are you trying to tell me and convince yourself that Keith is not loud in all of his matches? If not all, what percentage would you say Keith is loud? 99%? 90%? Do you really think it's worth it to even mention?

If you're confused, I'm sure someone can explain the difference between being a hypocrite (which I what I was calling Rick) and taking things "out of context." (which is what Rick is accusing me of doing)

[ QUOTE ]
Fred posts on 10/27/2003: "Keith, if you're reading, your break speed for that rack as it was called out was 16.2 mph. The slowest one of the day, as I don't remember them once calling out a speed less than 17 mph."

I don't mean to take the break speed comment out of context, but it was not the slowest one of the day.
<hr /></blockquote> And perhaps, someone can explain to you the meaning of "as I don't remember." There's no contradiction.

Additionally, how do you know it wasn't the slowest one of the day? How many matches were there that day? Four, right? JJ vs. Keith. Jose vs. Rodney. Jose vs. Keith (match in question), JJ vs. Jose. The taped matches of Jose/Keith/Jeremy had the breaks called out. Considering you were watching the Keith matches, I assume you have no idea what happened at the Rodney vs. Jose match. Jose wasn't soft breaking as proven by the PPV. And it's a stretch to think that Rodney had a slower break. The break in question was called out as 16.2 mph. Do you recall one called out slower? Didn't think so.

Now, if you're thinking your going to "trap me" by considering all of the breaks in the universe on that day, then I think you need to take a long look at whether it's really worth it to be nit-picking such an unrelated issue. Don't you?

Fred &lt;~~~ thinks JAM doesn't remember that I was calling Rick a blatant hyprocrite (as opposed to nitpicking)

RailbirdJAM
11-06-2003, 07:22 PM
Fred Agnir posts to Rick the Stick on 11/5/2003:

"What is that? Picking on him fairly? You think Mike Sigel would be all happy and nice to read what you wrote about him? I'd think he would say that you are a SUCKER PUNCHER, getting in your cheap shots at pros who can't come here and defend themselves. Shame on you.
Fred &lt;~~~~ tra la la, fiddle dee dee"

Do you think Keith McCready "would be all happy and nice to read" what Fred Agnir wrote about him?

jjinfla
11-06-2003, 08:08 PM
Personalizing a cueball just will not work because it is too easy to wipe off the part you don't want. It only works on paper goods.

But if you guys think about it the collectibles only increase in value after the person dies. So anybody who signs something shouldn't worry about the value of it because it will only go up in value after the signer dies.

Do you think Mosconi cares how much you can get for his signature now?

And besides, how often do you see someone asking to have a cueball signed? In five years I think I only saw about a half dozen different people asking pros to sign a cueball.
And four of those were at one place. And not too many more than that asking for autographs in general. Don't count trade shows because the pros are paid to pass out their autographed stuff there.

Just keep in mind that when you actually do start seeing more and more people asking for autographs then pool will be on the verge of making it.

Jake

Rick the stick
11-06-2003, 10:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr>
Now you are picking on me because I said he had an ego, yes Fred, he did, and if you ever got as good as he did and won 100 events, you would have one too. Damn near all of the great players in history had an ego. What about Mosconi, there was an ego.
I said Mike had an ego and you all should get used to it and live with it. Fred, you are really taking me out of context and what I said just to pick on me. Fred, don't you like Mike, are you jealous he can play circles around you? What's your problem with dealing with the great ones. I will always stand in Mikes defense, do not rake a great thru the board mud, he does not deserve that, did I not say that also? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote> It's not about me or your dumbass strawman arguments. It's about you being a hypocrite. Get it? Say all you want. You made good points in Mike's defense. Then you cut in on him with the ego comment. That's not about me. It's about you. You're a hypocrite, and you lose credibility. If you can't see that, then I suggest you take your blinders off.

Fred &lt;~~~ glad Rick didn't understand a thing. No surprise. <hr /></blockquote>


Dear Fred, I tried to post my opinions and to defend the 5th greatest player of all time, a hall of famer, a writer for billiard digest, he obviously see's this board. He won 100 events, nobody else has done that. When I see a nobody like you tee off on him, I see nothing but a nobody jealousy loser trying to take down a giant of the game.

Who are you to do that to the great one, Mike Sigel. Is nothing sacred in this game our great legends can be trashed by nobody nothings like you.

I give my opinion and you say this, here is a copy of it:
It's not about me or your dumbass strawman arguments. It's about you being a hypocrite. Get it? Say all you want. You made good points in Mike's defense. Then you cut in on him with the ego comment. That's not about me. It's about you. You're a hypocrite, and you lose credibility. If you can't see that, then I suggest you take your blinders off.

Fred &lt;~~~ glad Rick didn't understand a thing. No surprise

Let's see your professional as a professional wanna be is this, I am a dumbass strawman, a hyprocrite, no creditability and a guy with blinders on. I do not have blinder on about MIKE'S ego, it's there, it's true, and I just admited this. That sir is telling the truth and not being hyprocritical. I defend the man, his record, and I am saying I am sick of little men like you trying to take down great men like Mike.

Your problem is you cannot carry in Mikes or Willies jock strap into a pool hall and you know that. When I tried to tell you that, you are a little jealous nobody who ought to shut up his big mouth, you went off. Leave the legends alone, loser. I am sick of this get Mike bash and trash thing. Fred, when you attack a real star and legend, you bring shame on you and on the game you play sir. Get off mike, go trash Mosconi for a while, why not drag down every star we have and run them all into the dirt. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

koolcuedude
11-07-2003, 02:11 AM
I just read this entire book. Two questions:who is Jack White? What is this, a trash Fl, Scott Lee and Mike Sigel thread. What is accomplished by that? Why does not somebody try to reverse this damage by posting something good about these people. Do we tear down every pro who set's foot here or tries to voice an opinion. Are only the opinions allowed of the self proclaimed so called pro's who are on this board now? Reading this was a total waste of my time. I have better things to do that read crap. Let's talk pool.

Rich R.
11-07-2003, 06:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> And besides, how often do you see someone asking to have a cueball signed? In five years I think I only saw about a half dozen different people asking pros to sign a cueball.<hr /></blockquote>
Jake, although I have never asked a player to sign a cue ball, this seems to be a very popular pastime at the Super Billiards Expo, at Valley Forge. At least it was when the WPBA players were there, since they are all friendly and willing to sign things for the fans. I have seen people with boxes of cue balls, tracking down all of their favorite players for a signature.
At least, I hope they were fans and the cue balls are on display in their homes, and not on ebay /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Rich R.
11-07-2003, 06:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> I tried to post my opinions and to defend the 5th greatest player of all time, a hall of famer, a writer for billiard digest, he obviously see's this board. He won 100 events, nobody else has done that. When I see a nobody like you tee off on him, I see nothing but a nobody jealousy loser trying to take down a giant of the game.<hr /></blockquote>
Rick, I don't believe anyone disputed Mike's ability as a player, however, all of his accomplishments on the pool table, say nothing about his character. That is what is in discussion here. Being a good player does not make you a good person. Mike just doesn't happen to be a good person, and I know that first hand.

The case of great players, having poor character, is not exclusive to pool. I think every sport has their share. I think we can respect the accomplishments of a player and still be able to discuss, and maybe criticize, their character.

Scott Lee
11-07-2003, 07:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote koolcuedude:</font><hr> I just read this entire book. Two questions:who is Jack White? What is this, a trash Fl, Scott Lee and Mike Sigel thread. What is accomplished by that? Why does not somebody try to reverse this damage by posting something good about these people.

Reading this was a total waste of my time. I have better things to do that read crap. Let's talk pool. <hr /></blockquote>

Koolcuedude...Jack White is a pocket billiards showman, who from 1958 through today, has toured the country and the world, promoting pool through trick shots, teaching, and challenge matches, at colleges, universities, and military bases all over! In 1995, after a 25 yr relationship, I purchased his "tour", and he has since, mostly retired. You can read a good article about him in the Oct. 1996 issue of Pool &amp; Billiard (that's the issue with Irving Crane on the cover, and also contained an interesting article on all-time great, Don Willis). This will be up on my website shortly. Many "players" have 'poo-poohed' Jack White, and other trick shot artists, as having no talent, or "guts" to play in tournaments. The truth is, that, then, as now, there was no statistical advantage to professional tournament play (you have to finish in the top 4 consistently, to break even or make a little $$$). The real money to be made in pool (with a VERY few exceptions), is in the entertainment business. Trick shot artists like Mike Massey and Dr. Cue (Tom Rossman) are extremely well respected worldwide. They are practically household names because of television, and relentless touring. Jack White made a very fine living for decades, because of a professional attitude and demeanor.

He was also a runout player, who gambled successfully, for decades BEFORE he turned to entertaining! Jack knew personally, and hustled with legendary names like Minnesota Fats, Luther Lassiter, Don Willis, and Earl Schriver; as well as "Rags" Fitzpatrick &amp; Rotation Slim (two better known black hustlers from the 50's &amp; 60's). Jack White is one of a very exclusive club of poolplayers ever to perform for a U.S. President, and/or in the White House...and the ONLY American player ever invited to a command performance for the Queen of England! Additionally, through his relationship with the U.S. Military (DOD...Dept. of Defense), Jack performed before heads of state in dozens of countries across the globe! He has made an positive impact on our sport, by introducing it to tens of thousands of excited and interested college students and military personnel for more than 45 years running!

About the rest of this thread...I agree with you! However, this is a "discussion board", and although the majority of posts in this thread dealt with (and should have been titled) "Mike Sigel's ego", it was still mostly just a discussion. Most people posted about having some kind of negative experience with Mike, mostly dealing with seeking autographs. NONE were uncomplimentary about his skills. A very few posters sought to disparage others, due to misperceptions (imo) on their parts. Nobody got hurt (with perhaps the exception of their feelings), and nobody was "trashing" anybody, imo. Things tend to get blown way out of proportion on these Internet boards very quickly. Sometimes they are deliberately 'manipulated' by a few individuals. All in all, the CCB is a great resource, with tons of information available on a wide variety of topics, for anyone to read, and/or ask questions about! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee

dg-in-centralpa
11-07-2003, 07:37 AM
Let me try to put an end to this thread. As for autographs, if they are personallized they don't have near the value as unpersonallized. 99% of the people don't want someone else's name there other than the pro. This is fact.
As for Mike ability to play, no one here was questioning his abilities only his ego and arrogance to fans. Most younger players nowadays have no idea who Mike is, other than a former pro. If Mike were to be more receptive to younger people, it would be good for his business as well as pool in general.
How would our sport fare if the WPBA pros weren't accessible to fans. They are our only constant right now. The men, unfortunately have egos, and can't get it right as to how to run a tour. Last year at VF, a lot of the men must have taken a look at the WPBA, because a lot of them were talking to fans, signing, and taking pictures with them. I saw many a delighted fan after the pro took a minute to talk with them.
My 13 year old daughter is in love with Karen, Ewa, and Jeanette. Can you imagine the delight on her face the first time she asked Karen for an autograph and Karen put her arm around my daughter, took her off to the side to sign a poster and talked with her for about 5 minutes? My daughter felt as if it was Christmas. She was so thrilled that she took a few minutes to speak to her.
If Mike or any other pros would just take a little time to acknowledge their fans, this would be a big boost for the game as well as for the men.
I personally have no ill feelings towards Mike. I wish him the best, but was turned off at having to pay(which I didn't) for an autograph of someone who I admired as a player and was basically unapproachable. If Mike were selling posters and would sign it for, yes I would have paid. If Mike were at a sports memorabilia show as a feature person, no problem. But all he was doing was selling his cues.

DG

Scott Lee
11-07-2003, 07:50 AM
DG...You mentioned that you have been involved in this autograph/memorabilia biz. I have an original poster from the 1995 Camel Pro Exhibition Tour, framed, and signed by all nine pros (Mike Sigel, Nick Varner, Earl Strickland, Buddy Hall, Kim Davenport, Johnny Archer, Jim Rempe, Mike Massey, and Allen Hopkins. It is mint condition, and unpersonalized. It comes with Earl Strickland's PERSONAL Camel Pro Exhibition Tour shirt, and a pool ball signed by Sigel, Varner, Hopkins, Terry Bell, Larry Hubbart, and former PBTA Commissioner Don Mackey (:p). I would like to put this package up for sale to an interested fan, but have ZERO idea of any value...which is probably subjective at best, anyway. Do you think eBay is the best place for this?

Scott Lee

eg8r
11-07-2003, 09:07 AM
How is Mike doing in the tournament? Last I checked he was still in the winners bracket.

eg8r

RailbirdJAM
11-07-2003, 09:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> How is Mike doing in the tournament? Last I checked he was still in the winners bracket.<hr /></blockquote>

According to AZBilliards, Buddy Hall knocked Mike Sigel in the loser's bracket.

Ralph S.
11-07-2003, 12:25 PM
Go Buddy Go!!!!!!!!!!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

cycopath
11-07-2003, 12:39 PM
Why is it everytime I go to AZBilliards.com either the site is completely down or the images aren't loading and nearly every link is dead? And it stays like that for hours.
Does it take that long for them to update?

Rick the stick
11-07-2003, 01:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> Why is it everytime I go to AZBilliards.com either the site is completely down or the images aren't loading and nearly every link is dead? And it stays like that for hours.
Does it take that long for them to update?
<hr /></blockquote>


Tell me about it, It has to been down or totally screwed up. I can only see two threads and it will not let me post. Others can't get in either. Playpool has totally died, not a post there in a week, 2 boards down, only one up right now. There is a new 2nd board up and running, www.billiards-pool.net (http://www.billiards-pool.net) Not much there now but some pro's are coming on to post from ccb.

wolfdancer
11-07-2003, 03:17 PM
Scott,
1. Is Jack white's book still in publication? I lost my copy, and would like to get another.
2. I'd like to sign up for a free lesson, giving you my endorsement in exchange...BUT, wait..I already took a paid lesson from you, and told my friends it was money well spent.
3. yer stealing students from FL?..or yer "knockin" FL 'cause he were stealing all yers?..I got confused in the middle of the thread...anyway, there should be enough around for both of you
4.re:appearance fees...J. Lee charges $7500 ??? I may have to raise my asking price to match hers. We once had a woman pro play a match here..but we couldn't let anyone know about the scheduled event, since she got $XXXX for an exhibition. One guy quipped that he'd only pay that, if there was a donkey in the act...I never found out what he meant by that..I just can't see how that animal could play any pool.
5. we need a little rancor on the board every now and then. let's some folks "vent" You're the target this week, but look at the good side...you might be preventing some domestic abuse

dg-in-centralpa
11-07-2003, 03:59 PM
Scott - I sent you a pm on this.
DG

Popcorn
11-07-2003, 04:08 PM
Quote
"Rags" Fitzpatrick &amp; Rotation Slim (two better known black hustlers from the 50's &amp; 60's)".

John Fitzpatrick was not black, you must be thinking of "Rags Woods".

preacherman
11-07-2003, 09:21 PM
Hi,
I haven't posted in awhile. You made a comment about problems with AZ Billiards board. I wouldn't give up on them. And they have a great informative pool site (even when forum isn't working).

But do check out www.billards-pool.net (http://www.billards-pool.net) I think this will be a great forum to get involved in. From what I've seen there is no mud slinging. Plus it even has a site for women pool players, trick shots, and even Christian pool players to share on (which I like).

So check out: www.billiards-pool.net (http://www.billiards-pool.net)

Jim "preacherman"
www.christianpoolplayers.com (http://www.christianpoolplayers.com)

Chalks Billiards
11-07-2003, 10:06 PM
Scott Lee, in my opinion what you have done on this thread is very unprofessional. What you say about Mike Segal may be one hundred percent accurate, but your bad mouthing of Segal shows poorly on you.

You might want to think about taking a business and marketing course some day. It is obvious to me you don't know the first thing about it. Do you have any idea how many potential customers you have lost because of this thread? Did you consider the kind of image you portray when you talk badly about someone in the same profession? Some pretty smart people came up with the slogan " Image is everything" , and right now your image to some people isn't looking to swift.

Just to clarify, I don't know Scott or Mike or anyone on this BB. I have been a successful room operator for 14 years and also own substantial commercial real estate.

bigdawg
11-07-2003, 11:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chalks Billiards:</font><hr> Scott Lee, in my opinion what you have done on this thread is very unprofessional. What you say about Mike Segal may be one hundred percent accurate, but your bad mouthing of Segal shows poorly on you.

You might want to think about taking a business and marketing course some day. It is obvious to me you don't know the first thing about it. Do you have any idea how many potential customers you have lost because of this thread? Did you consider the kind of image you portray when you talk badly about someone in the same profession? Some pretty smart people came up with the slogan " Image is everything" , and right now your image to some people isn't looking to swift.

Just to clarify, I don't know Scott or Mike or anyone on this BB. I have been a successful room operator for 14 years and also own substantial commercial real estate.
<hr /></blockquote>

TAP TAP TAP. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Scott Lee
11-08-2003, 04:21 AM
Jack...Jack White's book is no longer in print, and will NOT be reprinted. He got into a pissin' match with the "co-author" (who happens to hold the copyright), and neither of them can reprint it, without express permission from each other. I, however, have express permission from JW, reprint any part of that book that was JW's words...which I plan to do. LOL

Hope to see you again in 10 days!

Scott

Scott Lee
11-08-2003, 04:25 AM
Popcorn...My mistake! I didn't know either of these gentlemen. Thanks for giving me the 'heads up'! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

TomBrooklyn
11-08-2003, 07:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chalks Billiards:</font><hr> Scott Lee, in my opinion what you have done on this thread is very unprofessional. ... right now your image to some people isn't looking to[sic] swift.
<hr /></blockquote>Well you know what they say about opinions, Chalk Billiards, ....everybody has one.

With yours, I'm having trouble reconciling the biting nature of your criticism with the concerned veneer it's couched in. It's hard to tell if you're trying to be helpful or fuel the very reaction you claim Scott has brought on to himself.

I greatly enjoy reading first hand stories about the pros and icons of the game, and prefer the real skinny complete with the foibles and imperfections of our flawed heroes than a whitewashed interview approved by a magazine editor and public relations person.

Along with playing tips and techniques, I believe those kind of stories are one of the greatest attractions of this forum.

Regards,
Tom

bigdawg
11-08-2003, 12:40 PM
Tom, I do not think Chalks had any sinister motive in his post. I though it was very well written by a very intelligent man, just as your post was well written and well tought out. I read it as this, he does not think any pro should bash another pro and was simply passing on that advice to Mr. Lee that doing so only comes back to run down your image. He was very polite in his message. He had an opinion of this, you did, Mr Lee has his as well. Everyone will sort it out and form theirs as well.

koolcuedude
11-08-2003, 01:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bigdawg:</font><hr> Tom, I do not think Chalks had any sinister motive in his post. I though it was very well written by a very intelligent man, just as your post was well written and well tought out. I read it as this, he does not think any pro should bash another pro and was simply passing on that advice to Mr. Lee that doing so only comes back to run down your image. He was very polite in his message. He had an opinion of this, you did, Mr Lee has his as well. Everyone will sort it out and form theirs as well. <hr /></blockquote>

Tom the Chalk guy said he had no motive, perhaps he will come back and answer that just to set the record straight.

Jimminy
11-08-2003, 04:32 PM
If you want to know what the real story is on the Scott Lee's attempt to bash and trash Mike Sigel and you do not have an hour to read through 4 full pages of threads, here are actual quotes made on those 4 pages in the order they posted. Jack White was like others of his era, he saw Minnesota Fats go out and lie like a dog about everything and get by clean with it and make a ton of money. Jack being a road hustler and con just imitated Fatty and became a cheap 2nd rate copy of him. The only guy who lied more than Fatty was Jack, he was the supreme mother of all bull **** artists who ever walked the earth. Like the stuffy queen of England would give a fat pool hustler a command performance. They are Snooker snobs, they could care less back then about pool. The queen thought pool was where she swam. In the 60's and 70's nobody even played pool in England. Jack like fatty would just dream up all the wonderful great things he did which never occured and he told the same lies for so long he began to believe they were true. What is true is he did get a very successful college tour going and he did make a lot of money off of it. Back then, he had virtually no competition there, the only other guy out there at the time was a bigger liar and phony than Jack telling everyone he had won 30 world trick shot championships in a row, same kind of made up bull hockey. Jack would get a booking then bribe people to bring him back. He would buy the guy who booked him a fancy dinner and stick a piece of the gig in the guys pocket when nobody was looking and his return engagement was then insured. That is illegal in the college world. He would walk out telling you he was the greatest of all time, that he could not get any better than he now is, perfect. I ran 21 racks in a row last night he would say. He would offer to play the kids and if he lost he would buy everyone in the place a bottle of champagne. I have had at least three kids tell me they had him beat and were about to take him out and he would say, look kid, here's a c note in your pocket, you gotta let me win or the guy who booked this will flunk you out next quarter. The kids would take a dive and the grand hustler would not have to pay off. That was all jack was, a liar, a con, a payoff bribe specialist. What do you expect from a real pool hustler. That is Scott Lee's hero, the guy who trained him and who Scott thinks it the best he ever saw. What Scott Lee was at the time was a pool hustler also going no where. He did not have the talent to beat any one or get booked as an entertainer. Jack retires, he buys his tour for half down of the years bookings and will pay out the other half over time and Jack trains him on how to con and bribe people so everyone will think Scott is great too. Jack grabs the money and runs off in the sunset. That is why you saw once a week one of those phony as hell posts, I just took the fantastic Scott Lee lesson, it was part of his bribe people to say he's great to con others into taking lessons as well. You post my free ad, I will give you a free lesson. Smart yes, but was that not dis honest? The people who actually paid for his lessons say he talks too much and tattles on previous students on their abilities and trashes other pros and teachers. They say he is nothing but a beginner level teacher and teaches a basic beginner lesson. Some say, his lesson is from the Bob Byrne book, he has it memorized and goes virtually page to page from the book. They say, why did I need him, I could just read the book. The guy has never had an original idea or concept in his life. As a teacher he is just a Ok run of the mill guy. If you are a better player wanting advanced level things he is not your ticket. As a trick shot artist, how sick are you of that damn stupid green table going off on every post the guy makes. He even stole the shot on the table from Mike Massey who invented it. Scott has never ever entered any trick shot contest to compete with the best in this field. Why, because he has no talent and he would come in last and his true skill levels would be revealed. He prefers to tell everyone the reason he does not play with these guys is he is too good, he does not want to come in and embarrass them so to save them face since he is too good to play them he grants them a reprive. Scott is not a trick shot pro, he just shoots shots for kids in a school, nothing more, nothing any less. Have you ever seen him in a booth entertaining at the Hopkins or at the BCA show like all the other big stars in Artistic are showcased. No, because nobody will book him and pay him money to flub around. He would not draw flies. Scott Lee is not a pool pro either. He has never ever entered a pro 9 ball event. He has never beated any one of any merit in any contest. If he ever did, bank on it he paid the guy under the table to take a dive and make him look good so he could brag on it later. Scott Lee is not a pro level player even though he pretends to be. He is not much better than the people he teaches. If you want to know, next time you see him ask him to break some 9 ball and run a couple of racks for you. Then you will know. What we have here is a pretender who came on ccb and has slowly bribed and conned his way in where a lot of people now think he is some kind of great guru God of instruction and trick shot grand master. Sorry people, but you just got the royal con job put on you. This has been well known by a lot of people but they just did not have the nerve to come out and say it. Read the following quotes off of the board, they are all actual quotes, go in and find them if you wish. Here are what other board members are saying about Scott Lee, the real truth finally emerges: Gee Scott I thought you would be above the petty bickering and putting down of people. That should be left to us common folks. Makes you sound like all the people who jumped on FL. Quote JJinfla I'm beginning to think that Larry may have been right about you all along. I am sure you won't mind me voicing my opinion of you. The fact is, you are the failure, even at what you do regarding trick shots. I doubt we will see you entering any competitions any time soon. You will say, "Oh, it is because I don't want to". Yea, right, you would love to be able to put on your résumé "World trick shot champion". Of course it takes a pair or you know what's to compete. What a phony. Have you ever won anything? Quotes and cuts from BOLO Thanks, you're right! ............ Reply to Bolo, quote: steve lomoko Doesn't sound like a complement to me, and lets face it, is that the way you talk behind someone back, who is suppose to be a friend and on a forum like this? Scott sounds a little two faced. He is a small man in my opinion.....Quote BOLO Like I said, unprofessional, just a sad little man, dropping names, trying to sound important. As you say, I am welcome to my opinion. Since I don't know you other then from here, and unless I am an anomaly, it is probably an opinion shared by quite a few others, whether they choose to express it or not. ......quote

You can say those things, my point was, Scott is suppose to be a professional. He just comes off as a jealous jerk by saying such things, even if they are true. Some of what he said was from a private conversation he supposedly had with Mike while having dinner. Now he says Mike is not even a friend of his. Not only does it make Scott look like a two faced rat, but we don't even know if his cue ball story is true since he does not even like Mike anyway and enjoys spreading stories about him. If this stuff is such common knowledge, ask yourself, what is Scott's motive in repeating it then? Scott is a little man trying to make himself seem bigger by tearing someone else down. Scott's comfort zone is in the company of beginners, that is why he likes teaching, you get all that praise from people that think you are great because they don't know any better. (Big fish in a little pond syndrome ) I am sure he has feelings of inferiority when around real players, that is why he would say the kinds of things he does about Mike, ( True of not, doesn't matter ), because he feels inferior, It's a powerful emotion. As far as your story about Mikes store, it is probably true, And although I don't know how it will help me draw the ball better, I doubt you have any motive in telling it. quote bolo

Re: Scott bitter phony [re: Scott Lee]

It does not matter what opinion you have of me, I am not in the billiard business as Scott is. Scott is suppose to be some kind of professional and bad mouthing another professional on a forum like this shows very little class. Even if others want to do it, it is not his place to do it, even if true. That was my point, he must have other motives for telling the story. He comes off like a low class little weasel in my opinion. Like I said, jealousy is a powerful emotion. quote bolo

Steve the reason Scott Lee added FL to his attack is what else has the guy ever done but trash FL from the beginning.
You may not like the guy, but as least he signed his name to what he said which is more than what we can say for bolo.
Fl came in on this forum in the beginning and scott lee teed off on him, did not want another instructor taking business away and fl was pulling his customers. Fl told you then what Lee was like and none of you believed him.
He said Lee has never ever entered a trick shot contest and cannot beat any one in that business including FL.
He said Lee is a good beginner teacher who should stick to teaching beginners. When he did that, Lee got up all his pals and began cutting his throat behind his back. I think there was some old bad blood there also. Something about fl challenging him to play him in 97 at the Hopkins and Lee was too chicken to tee it up. I forgot what that story was all about, heard it once. As far as Lee saying FL lied about being in Stoller's office in Chicago and giving him his jump cue and turning over all of his secrets on what made it work, Lee said call him up. Well I did and it turns out Lee is quoting out of context, twisting things around to smear the guy one more time. It turns out, FL did do all of that. He did not lie, Scott Lee did. That should tell you something right there sports fans.

All of these threads that go up all the time about my great lesson I just took with Scott Lee. Most don't know the reason for them is Scott pays the guy to put that up by giving the lesson free to the guy for the free phoney ad. I know, he offered the deal to me and I passed. All that phoney praise he bought and paid for to con newbies into booking lessons with him. The guy who taught him the business was jack white was the biggest con to ever hit pool. He made the payoff to get new business an art form.
Bolo may be a little mean and cruel sometimes and I do not like the guy, but he has hit the nail on the head on Lee, just read what the guy wrote, there the real Lee is clearly exposed in his own words. Does Bolo tell the truth, he say's he is not in the billiards business but I can assure you he was working in a booth at the BCA trade show this year. I think it should only be fair that if a bolo is going to tee off on a Scott Lee, right or wrong about what he is saying, he ought to have the guts to tell us who he is and what his motive is for his comments. I think bolo is nothing but a bully, he no longer has fl to kick around, so it makes him feel good to beat up somebody new. Some of you boys need to go get a prescription for some valiums and chill out.

I already posted earlier my feelings about sigel, you are all being too hard on a great player. I feel you are picking on the guy unfairly. Yes he has an ego problem, you all just need to learn to deal with it.
The guy is an obvious genius, sometimes the line between a genius and the village idiot is a thin line. Focus on the fact mike is one of the top 5 greatest players of the 20th century, and any one that great should not be dragged thru the mud on any forum, you all should afford him a little more respect that the man is due. This is an amazing thread, it appears some of you really like to kick a dog when he is down. quote rick the stick

What is that? Picking on him fairly? You think Mike Sigel would be all happy and nice to read what you wrote about him? I'd think he would say that you are a SUCKER PUNCHER, getting in your cheap shots at pros who can't come here and defend themselves. Shame on you.

Fred &lt;~~~~ tra la la, fiddle dee dee quoe fred agnir

Scott Lee, in my opinion what you have done on this thread is very unprofessional. What you say about Mike Segal may be one hundred percent accurate, but your bad mouthing of Segal shows poorly on you.

You might want to think about taking a business and marketing course some day. It is obvious to me you don't know the first thing about it. Do you have any idea how many potential customers you have lost because of this thread? Did you consider the kind of image you portray when you talk badly about someone in the same profession? Some pretty smart people came up with the slogan " Image is everything" , and right now your image to some people isn't looking to swift.

Just to clarify, I don't know Scott or Mike or anyone on this BB. I have been a successful room operator for 14 years and also own substantial commercial real estate. quote chalks billiards

Personally, I greatly enjoy reading first hand stories about the pros and icons of the game. And I'd rather read the real skinny complete with the foibles and imperfections of our flawed heroes than a whitewashed interview approved by some public relations manager. quote tom brooklyn

MikeM
11-08-2003, 05:06 PM
Larry, you are a total loony!!!

MM

Billy
11-08-2003, 06:04 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jimminy:</font><hr> If you want to know what the real story is on the Scott Lee's attempt to bash and trash Mike Sigel and you do not have an hour to read through 4 full pages of threads, here are actual quotes made on those 4 pages in the order they posted. Jack White was like others of his era, he saw Minnesota Fats go out and lie like a dog about everything and get by clean with it and make a ton of money. Jack being a road hustler and con just imitated Fatty and became a cheap 2nd rate copy of him. The only guy who lied more than Fatty was Jack, he was the supreme mother of all bull **** artists who ever walked the earth. Like the stuffy queen of England would give a fat pool hustler a command performance. They are Snooker snobs, they could care less back then about pool. The queen thought pool was where she swam. In the 60's and 70's nobody even played pool in England. Jack like fatty would just dream up all the wonderful great things he did which never occured and he told the same lies for so long he began to believe they were true. What is true is he did get a very successful college tour going and he did make a lot of money off of it. Back then, he had virtually no competition there, the only other guy out there at the time was a bigger liar and phony than Jack telling everyone he had won 30 world trick shot championships in a row, same kind of made up bull hockey. Jack would get a booking then bribe people to bring him back. He would buy the guy who booked him a fancy dinner and stick a piece of the gig in the guys pocket when nobody was looking and his return engagement was then insured. That is illegal in the college world. He would walk out telling you he was the greatest of all time, that he could not get any better than he now is, perfect. I ran 21 racks in a row last night he would say. He would offer to play the kids and if he lost he would buy everyone in the place a bottle of champagne. I have had at least three kids tell me they had him beat and were about to take him out and he would say, look kid, here's a c note in your pocket, you gotta let me win or the guy who booked this will flunk you out next quarter. The kids would take a dive and the grand hustler would not have to pay off. That was all jack was, a liar, a con, a payoff bribe specialist. What do you expect from a real pool hustler. That is Scott Lee's hero, the guy who trained him and who Scott thinks it the best he ever saw. What Scott Lee was at the time was a pool hustler also going no where. He did not have the talent to beat any one or get booked as an entertainer. Jack retires, he buys his tour for half down of the years bookings and will pay out the other half over time and Jack trains him on how to con and bribe people so everyone will think Scott is great too. Jack grabs the money and runs off in the sunset. That is why you saw once a week one of those phony as hell posts, I just took the fantastic Scott Lee lesson, it was part of his bribe people to say he's great to con others into taking lessons as well. You post my free ad, I will give you a free lesson. Smart yes, but was that not dis honest? The people who actually paid for his lessons say he talks too much and tattles on previous students on their abilities and trashes other pros and teachers. They say he is nothing but a beginner level teacher and teaches a basic beginner lesson. Some say, his lesson is from the Bob Byrne book, he has it memorized and goes virtually page to page from the book. They say, why did I need him, I could just read the book. The guy has never had an original idea or concept in his life. As a teacher he is just a Ok run of the mill guy. If you are a better player wanting advanced level things he is not your ticket. As a trick shot artist, how sick are you of that damn stupid green table going off on every post the guy makes. He even stole the shot on the table from Mike Massey who invented it. Scott has never ever entered any trick shot contest to compete with the best in this field. Why, because he has no talent and he would come in last and his true skill levels would be revealed. He prefers to tell everyone the reason he does not play with these guys is he is too good, he does not want to come in and embarrass them so to save them face since he is too good to play them he grants them a reprive. Scott is not a trick shot pro, he just shoots shots for kids in a school, nothing more, nothing any less. Have you ever seen him in a booth entertaining at the Hopkins or at the BCA show like all the other big stars in Artistic are showcased. No, because nobody will book him and pay him money to flub around. He would not draw flies. Scott Lee is not a pool pro either. He has never ever entered a pro 9 ball event. He has never beated any one of any merit in any contest. If he ever did, bank on it he paid the guy under the table to take a dive and make him look good so he could brag on it later. Scott Lee is not a pro level player even though he pretends to be. He is not much better than the people he teaches. If you want to know, next time you see him ask him to break some 9 ball and run a couple of racks for you. Then you will know. What we have here is a pretender who came on ccb and has slowly bribed and conned his way in where a lot of people now think he is some kind of great guru God of instruction and trick shot grand master. Sorry people, but you just got the royal con job put on you. This has been well known by a lot of people but they just did not have the nerve to come out and say it. Read the following quotes off of the board, they are all actual quotes, go in and find them if you wish. Here are what other board members are saying about Scott Lee, the real truth finally emerges: Gee Scott I thought you would be above the petty bickering and putting down of people. That should be left to us common folks. Makes you sound like all the people who jumped on FL. Quote JJinfla I'm beginning to think that Larry may have been right about you all along. I am sure you won't mind me voicing my opinion of you. The fact is, you are the failure, even at what you do regarding trick shots. I doubt we will see you entering any competitions any time soon. You will say, "Oh, it is because I don't want to". Yea, right, you would love to be able to put on your résumé "World trick shot champion". Of course it takes a pair or you know what's to compete. What a phony. Have you ever won anything? Quotes and cuts from BOLO Thanks, you're right! ............ Reply to Bolo, quote: steve lomoko Doesn't sound like a complement to me, and lets face it, is that the way you talk behind someone back, who is suppose to be a friend and on a forum like this? Scott sounds a little two faced. He is a small man in my opinion.....Quote BOLO Like I said, unprofessional, just a sad little man, dropping names, trying to sound important. As you say, I am welcome to my opinion. Since I don't know you other then from here, and unless I am an anomaly, it is probably an opinion shared by quite a few others, whether they choose to express it or not. ......quote

You can say those things, my point was, Scott is suppose to be a professional. He just comes off as a jealous jerk by saying such things, even if they are true. Some of what he said was from a private conversation he supposedly had with Mike while having dinner. Now he says Mike is not even a friend of his. Not only does it make Scott look like a two faced rat, but we don't even know if his cue ball story is true since he does not even like Mike anyway and enjoys spreading stories about him. If this stuff is such common knowledge, ask yourself, what is Scott's motive in repeating it then? Scott is a little man trying to make himself seem bigger by tearing someone else down. Scott's comfort zone is in the company of beginners, that is why he likes teaching, you get all that praise from people that think you are great because they don't know any better. (Big fish in a little pond syndrome ) I am sure he has feelings of inferiority when around real players, that is why he would say the kinds of things he does about Mike, ( True of not, doesn't matter ), because he feels inferior, It's a powerful emotion. As far as your story about Mikes store, it is probably true, And although I don't know how it will help me draw the ball better, I doubt you have any motive in telling it. quote bolo

Re: Scott bitter phony [re: Scott Lee]

It does not matter what opinion you have of me, I am not in the billiard business as Scott is. Scott is suppose to be some kind of professional and bad mouthing another professional on a forum like this shows very little class. Even if others want to do it, it is not his place to do it, even if true. That was my point, he must have other motives for telling the story. He comes off like a low class little weasel in my opinion. Like I said, jealousy is a powerful emotion. quote bolo

Steve the reason Scott Lee added FL to his attack is what else has the guy ever done but trash FL from the beginning.
You may not like the guy, but as least he signed his name to what he said which is more than what we can say for bolo.
Fl came in on this forum in the beginning and scott lee teed off on him, did not want another instructor taking business away and fl was pulling his customers. Fl told you then what Lee was like and none of you believed him.
He said Lee has never ever entered a trick shot contest and cannot beat any one in that business including FL.
He said Lee is a good beginner teacher who should stick to teaching beginners. When he did that, Lee got up all his pals and began cutting his throat behind his back. I think there was some old bad blood there also. Something about fl challenging him to play him in 97 at the Hopkins and Lee was too chicken to tee it up. I forgot what that story was all about, heard it once. As far as Lee saying FL lied about being in Stoller's office in Chicago and giving him his jump cue and turning over all of his secrets on what made it work, Lee said call him up. Well I did and it turns out Lee is quoting out of context, twisting things around to smear the guy one more time. It turns out, FL did do all of that. He did not lie, Scott Lee did. That should tell you something right there sports fans.

All of these threads that go up all the time about my great lesson I just took with Scott Lee. Most don't know the reason for them is Scott pays the guy to put that up by giving the lesson free to the guy for the free phoney ad. I know, he offered the deal to me and I passed. All that phoney praise he bought and paid for to con newbies into booking lessons with him. The guy who taught him the business was jack white was the biggest con to ever hit pool. He made the payoff to get new business an art form.
Bolo may be a little mean and cruel sometimes and I do not like the guy, but he has hit the nail on the head on Lee, just read what the guy wrote, there the real Lee is clearly exposed in his own words. Does Bolo tell the truth, he say's he is not in the billiards business but I can assure you he was working in a booth at the BCA trade show this year. I think it should only be fair that if a bolo is going to tee off on a Scott Lee, right or wrong about what he is saying, he ought to have the guts to tell us who he is and what his motive is for his comments. I think bolo is nothing but a bully, he no longer has fl to kick around, so it makes him feel good to beat up somebody new. Some of you boys need to go get a prescription for some valiums and chill out.

I already posted earlier my feelings about sigel, you are all being too hard on a great player. I feel you are picking on the guy unfairly. Yes he has an ego problem, you all just need to learn to deal with it.
The guy is an obvious genius, sometimes the line between a genius and the village idiot is a thin line. Focus on the fact mike is one of the top 5 greatest players of the 20th century, and any one that great should not be dragged thru the mud on any forum, you all should afford him a little more respect that the man is due. This is an amazing thread, it appears some of you really like to kick a dog when he is down. quote rick the stick

What is that? Picking on him fairly? You think Mike Sigel would be all happy and nice to read what you wrote about him? I'd think he would say that you are a SUCKER PUNCHER, getting in your cheap shots at pros who can't come here and defend themselves. Shame on you.

Fred &lt;~~~~ tra la la, fiddle dee dee quoe fred agnir

Scott Lee, in my opinion what you have done on this thread is very unprofessional. What you say about Mike Segal may be one hundred percent accurate, but your bad mouthing of Segal shows poorly on you.

You might want to think about taking a business and marketing course some day. It is obvious to me you don't know the first thing about it. Do you have any idea how many potential customers you have lost because of this thread? Did you consider the kind of image you portray when you talk badly about someone in the same profession? Some pretty smart people came up with the slogan " Image is everything" , and right now your image to some people isn't looking to swift.

Just to clarify, I don't know Scott or Mike or anyone on this BB. I have been a successful room operator for 14 years and also own substantial commercial real estate. quote chalks billiards

Personally, I greatly enjoy reading first hand stories about the pros and icons of the game. And I'd rather read the real skinny complete with the foibles and imperfections of our flawed heroes than a whitewashed interview approved by some public relations manager. quote tom brooklyn

<hr /></blockquote>

in my humble opinion all I read here is a pure case of envy

you rant and rave over a situation you only wish you could have conceived before SL did,more power to him

thinking SL is good for the game consider this : why don't YOU put as much effort into your 'ACT' as you do trying to convince others that the Fats,Jack White,and SL thing is for boneheads,beginners,and nerds

I personally see no reason that you should not be included in the fine company above

the only major difference was that Fats was successful and could play a little /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

imitation is a sincere form of flattery,more power to the savvy business man that can see opportunities develop,grab the opportunity and then do something with it.

take it for what it's worth,talk is cheap but is highly impressive dealing with beginners

you need a new routine

jmo

jjinfla
11-08-2003, 06:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> How is Mike doing in the tournament? Last I checked he was still in the winners bracket.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Mike lost to Buddy Hall and boy did that piss him off. He is going through the losers with a vengence. My friend was doing quite well until he had to face Mike. Only won 4 games aganst him. What was I thinking? I should have given my friend a cueball and had him get Mike to sign it. Boy did I mess up big time. After this tournament everyone will want Mike and he will now get $100 to sign one. And I can see Mike entering those tournaments that the Seminole Tribe is going to run next year. $50K added. And he will be playing in the Florida Pro Men's Tour a few times so he will be elligible for their grand finale next year.

Sounds like there is a new top Dawg in town and he is not taking prisoners. I guess he just got tired of watching all the players while he was the commentator knowing that he could beat them. Gee, what can he do if he starts practicing regularly?

Mike is going to have to install bigger doors in his home.

Jake

Rick the stick
11-08-2003, 07:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> How is Mike doing in the tournament? Last I checked he was still in the winners bracket.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Mike lost to Buddy Hall and boy did that piss him off. He is going through the losers with a vengence. My friend was doing quite well until he had to face Mike. Only won 4 games aganst him. What was I thinking? I should have given my friend a cueball and had him get Mike to sign it. Boy did I mess up big time. After this tournament everyone will want Mike and he will now get $100 to sign one. And I can see Mike entering those tournaments that the Seminole Tribe is going to run next year. $50K added. And he will be playing in the Florida Pro Men's Tour a few times so he will be elligible for their grand finale next year.

Sounds like there is a new top Dawg in town and he is not taking prisoners. I guess he just got tired of watching all the players while he was the commentator knowing that he could beat them. Gee, what can he do if he starts practicing regularly?

Mike is going to have to install bigger doors in his home.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>


Oh tell it like it is big guy, Mike has french doors in his house in Orlando because his head now will not fit through a regular door.

Here is what we need to do now, beat the every loving crap out of fl for two pages, then tee off on Mosconi for 2 more pages and everybody get this out of their system. Let's just all beat the living crap out of Earl and all the other guys you dont like once and for all, then lets show these guys some respect and leave them boys alone and let them work. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Chalks Billiards
11-09-2003, 08:15 AM
bigdawg , thank you for reading my post as it was intended. Your review of my post was quite correct.

Rick the stick
11-09-2003, 12:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chalks Billiards:</font><hr> bigdawg , thank you for reading my post as it was intended. Your review of my post was quite correct. <hr /></blockquote>

Mike Sigel: On November 1999, billiard digest ranked the top 100 greatest players and Mike Sigel was # 5 on the list. Some quotes from that article. Not since Willie Mosconi in the 40's had a player so dominated a decade as Mike did the 80's. He was know as Mr. final. He won 85 of 95 tourneys in which he reached the final match. He is the greatest living player alive today. He was the master of straight pool and 9 ball. He has won one pocket tourneys and over 100 tournaments overall.

At age 19 he ran 339 balls. He won his first world 14.1 title at age 27 in 1979 and won again in 81 &amp; 87. At the 89 US Open he went 150 and out on Jim Rempe. At the 92 US Open he went 150 and out on Mike Zuglan from the break. The one inning out remains a US Open record and was perhaps the most perfect 150 run every recorded on film. Steve Mizerak seeing it said Mike is the greatest player on earth. When 9 ball took over Mike won more 9 ball titles, 27 in the 1980's than any other player.

There are a lot of new players on the boards who are not aware of the position Mr. Sigel holds in the game. Those who have said some unkind things about him IMHO should read the above and then show our greatest player alive today more respect.

jjinfla
11-09-2003, 06:06 PM
Rick the Stick,

You caught the doors. But you probably didn't think that I meant his head was swelling with pride. And justified.

Let the man enjoy his hard earned victory. And bask in the glory. Hopefully it will bring some good press to the sport of billiards.

Sigel enters his first tournament in what, ten years, and instead of people praising his great feat in not only showing well in the tournament but actually winning it they complain about his ego. What utter nonsense.

It ain't an ego trip, or bragging, when a person does, or has done, what he is talking about.

I would venture to guess that out of the 200,000 or so people who play in the APA that only a handful have been able to run 50 balls in 14.1. Not an easy task for most players. And Mike can probably do it routinely.

If there were a few more Mike Sigels in the sport of pool maybe the sport would be recognized by the fans, and the news media. But instead of praising Sigel's accomplishment people try to find something wrong with it. But it seems that a lot of people just like to find fault with others. I suppose that makes them feel bigger. But only in their own minds.

Jake

dg-in-centralpa
11-09-2003, 06:34 PM
Mike entered a 14.1 in NYC a couple years ago. He didn't fare very well. In fact he played so poorly that he threw his stick on the floor and broke it. It wasn't the sticks' fault he didn't do well. I've been pissed for not playing well, but never considered throwing my stick out of frustration. I congratulate Mike for winning. Unfortunately I think you missed the point of the thread. No one is questioning his abilities, only his attitude. Nothing more nothing less.

DG - nothing more to say on this subject

TomBrooklyn
11-10-2003, 04:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dg-in-centralpa:</font><hr> he played so poorly that he threw his stick on the floor and broke it. It wasn't the sticks' fault he didn't do well. ...No one is questioning his abilities, only his attitude. DG - nothing more to say on this subject <hr /></blockquote>Dg, I don't expect you to reply after going on record that you have nothing more to say on this subject; but I have to wonder, if it wasn't the cue stick's fault that he didn't do well, why do so many people put so much thought into selecting a cue stick to play with?

As to Mike Segal's attitude, I'd like to congratulate him for breaking his cue stick. To paraphrase Matthew 18 and Mark 9 "if thy cue stick offends thee, break it in half and cast it from thee, for it is better to win with a new cue stick than to lose with the old one." I like to see that kind of intensity and emotion in a player.

Also, it means someone will have to be paid to sweep and vacume it up; and he will need to buy or make another one which will provide a job for someone. His action contributed to enhancing the economy.

TomBk

nhp
11-10-2003, 05:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dg-in-centralpa:</font><hr> he played so poorly that he threw his stick on the floor and broke it. It wasn't the sticks' fault he didn't do well. ...No one is questioning his abilities, only his attitude. DG - nothing more to say on this subject <hr /></blockquote>Dg, I don't expect you to reply after going on the record that you have nothing more to say on this subject; but I have to wonder, if it wasn't the cue sticks fault that he didn't do well, why do so many people put so much thought into selecting a cue stick to play with?

As to Mike Segal's attitude, I'd like to congratulate him for breaking his cue stick. To paraphrase Matthew 18 and Mark 9 "if thy cue stick offends thee, break it in half and cast it from thee, for it is better to win with a new cue stick than to lose with the old one." I like to see that kind of intensity and emotion in a player.

Also, it means someone will have to be paid to sweep and vacume it up; and he will need to buy or make another one which will provide a job for someone. His action contributed to enhancing the economy.

TomBk <hr /></blockquote>

LOL!!!

bluewolf
11-10-2003, 05:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> To paraphrase Matthew 18 and Mark 9 "if thy cue stick offends thee, break it in half and cast it from thee, for it is better to win with a new cue stick than to lose with the old one." I like to see that kind of intensity and emotion in a player.

Also, it means someone will have to be paid to sweep and vacume it up; and he will need to buy or make another one which will provide a job for someone. His action contributed to enhancing the economy.

TomBk <hr /></blockquote>

Finally something funny. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Thanks Tom. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

jjinfla
11-10-2003, 06:48 AM
Tom, It only goes to prove that anything can be found in the Bible. Now if only I can find my Bible to verify what you say is in there...

In baseball it seems pretty routine to toss a bat, pound it in the dirt or break it over one's knee. And how many golf clubs have been tossed in the air? In the water? Or pounded into the ground? Nobody gets upset with the players over that. Heck, some batters actually throw the bat at the pitcher. And then all hell breaks loose. Next day it is all forgotten.

And wasn't it Johnny Archer who broke his stick during the Patriot Cup match in Tampa and everyone said it was just a fluke. And not really intentional.

But let's face it. Mike Sigel is the top dog now and he can expect everyone to be gunning for him. Fans included. Well, that should take a bunch of pressure off of Earl Strickland. LOL.

Jake

eg8r
11-10-2003, 07:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
But instead of praising Sigel's accomplishment people try to find something wrong with it. <hr /></blockquote> Jake, I cannot find a single instance in this thread where someone was trying to find something wrong with Mike's accomplisments. Understand it is his attitude they were discussing. Attitude and accomplishments are 2 totally different things.

As far as Mikes performance I applaud him. I will try and head up to his shop this week to congratulate him.

eg8r

eg8r
11-10-2003, 07:27 AM
Rick, no one is refuting the statistics. Your probably already know this (and appears you ignore it), statistics do not tell the whole story. Sigel is one of the greatest no doubt, and everyone on the board gives him that respect. No one has stated otherwise.

Why is it so hard for people to seperate the competitor from the man?

If you were to look at my Accu-stats collection it would be easy to see Mike Sigel is my favorite player. I just don't like to hang around and chat with him. I rather watch him play pool.

eg8r

#### leonard
11-10-2003, 07:49 AM
Aout golfers slamming clubs etc. I emailed the Tpga on how can they allow a player to alter the condition of the golf course without assessing a penalty. The player that lands in their huge divot is being unfairly penalized. THey gave some [censored] and Bull answer that they get fined.
If they added two shot penalties for every time Tiger did that he wouldn't have won one tournament.####

#### leonard
11-10-2003, 08:10 AM
Tom I'll give you my Mike Sigel story. I had posted about not playing for nearly 3 years and then winning a Qualifer for the 1974 US Open. After the Open I put the cue away and went back to work then I heard that there is a 14.1 tourney at the Syracuse Cue Club after 4 year break. Larry Hubbart,Alan Kiehle and myself had reduced the number of entrants from the high 40s to 11 the last time they held the tourney.

I hit some balls on Friday morning then drove to Syracuse on Sat morning.

My first game I draw Mike Sigel on the table near the mensroom. When I get to the table it is ringed with people waiting in line for the mensroom I think. NO everyone wants to bet me on the game. I replied guys when I was playing all the time no one asked me to bet, now that I am playing from memory everyone wants to bet.

Of course my memory was very good and I opened with a 58 ball run and won 100-22. Mike was gracious in losing but all I did was get him fired up he did win the tourney.

AzHousePro
11-10-2003, 08:21 AM
Cycopath, we do occasionally have speed issues like most sites out there. I am not sure about the "completely down or nearly every link dead" part.

Mike

jjinfla
11-10-2003, 05:11 PM
Eg8r,

There is a time and place for everything. Right now is the time to congratulate Mike on a terrific accomplishment. How many out there were hoping he would go 2 and out, or 3 and out so they could really rag him? But he went out and showed everyone how to play the game. So now instead of complimenting Mike for a fine performance they bring up stuff that happened in the past. And in doing so all they are trying to do is belittle what he accomplished.

Jake

Rick the stick
11-11-2003, 03:01 AM
Yo Tom, I'll be coming up to Brooklyn after the New year turns, see you then. I loved your quote, finally somebody posts something intelligent that I like:

As to Mike Segal's attitude, I'd like to congratulate him for breaking his cue stick. To paraphrase Matthew 18 and Mark 9 "if thy cue stick offends thee, break it in half and cast it from thee, for it is better to win with a new cue stick than to lose with the old one." I like to see that kind of intensity and emotion in a player.

Also, it means someone will have to be paid to sweep and vacume it up; and he will need to buy or make another one which will provide a job for someone. His action contributed to enhancing the economy.

Rick the stick
11-11-2003, 03:09 AM
To edg8r, when are you coming back to Atlanta to play with me again? Did you like my Schuler?

On Mike, I am sorry, it just looks like you guys, not you, but some were unfairly picking on the guy. If you want to you can find something to run anyone down on. He is not perfect and a lot of lessor know pro players are worse. They just do not get the fan exposure he does. I say cut him some slack and try to ignore some of the things you are not wild about. If every pro has to be perfect in your minds, we will have to build robots to go out and play. All humans are flawed in some way. If all of them could just be a very nice man like you are they would all be great, most want to but they just cant. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r
11-11-2003, 07:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
But he went out and showed everyone how to play the game. So now instead of complimenting Mike for a fine performance they bring up stuff that happened in the past. And in doing so all they are trying to do is belittle what he accomplished.
<hr /></blockquote> Jake, are you having a comprehension problem??? Once again no one is belittling the mans accomplishments. I have already stated that I would congratulate him.

eg8r

eg8r
11-11-2003, 07:34 AM
[ QUOTE ]
To edg8r, when are you coming back to Atlanta to play with me again? Did you like my Schuler? <hr /></blockquote> I don't remember playing with anyones Schuler.

[ QUOTE ]
I say cut him some slack and try to ignore some of the things you are not wild about. <hr /></blockquote> Exactly.

eg8r

Fred Agnir
11-11-2003, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RailbirdJAM:</font><hr> Do you think Keith McCready "would be all happy and nice to read" what Fred Agnir wrote about him? <hr /></blockquote>Maybe you don't understand the word "hypocrite"? Maybe I shouldn't be so coy, since it's obvious you missed any point.

I wasn't the one being hypocritical. Rick the Stick was. This has nothing to do with me or Keith. Why bring it up?

Fred

Fred Agnir
11-11-2003, 09:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> Who are you to do that to the great one, Mike Sigel. <hr /></blockquote> Let me say it nice and slow so that you and JAM can understand. I didn't say one word about Mike Sigel, good or bad. You did. Both good and bad. And you did it in a very hypocritical way. It's the hypocrisy that I was pointing out. Get it yet? I don't give a $hit whether you say good or bad things about anybody. It's your choice. But to berate others as you did, and then turn right around and do what you seem so against is hyprocritical. Get it now?

Why you accuse me of doing so is beyond me. The words are still there in black and white. I'm sorry neither of you has the decency to read them, yet you have the audacity to go offensive.

Hey Mike Sigel, if you're reading this, please see the rest of the threads. You will clearly see that I said nothing about you.

Fred &lt;~~~ what ever happened to "reading?"

Rick the stick
11-11-2003, 09:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> Who are you to do that to the great one, Mike Sigel. <hr /></blockquote> Let me say it nice and slow so that you and JAM can understand. I didn't say one word about Mike Sigel, good or bad. You did. Both good and bad. And you did it in a very hypocritical way. It's the hypocrisy that I was pointing out. Get it yet? I don't give a $hit whether you say good or bad things about anybody. It's your choice. But to berate others as you did, and then turn right around and do what you seem so against is hyprocritical. Get it now?

Why you accuse me of doing so is beyond me. The words are still there in black and white. I'm sorry neither of you has the decency to read them, yet you have the audacity to go offensive.

Hey Mike Sigel, if you're reading this, please see the rest of the threads. You will clearly see that I said nothing about you.

Fred &lt;~~~ what ever happened to "reading?" <hr /></blockquote>


This is Rickie, Fred, your gonna blow a head gasket over this, calm down man.

You said about me: I wasn't the one being hypocritical. Rick the Stick was. This has nothing to do with me or Keith. Why bring it up?

Fred, sticks and stones can break my bones but your words can never hurt me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fred Agnir
11-11-2003, 10:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr>
This is Rickie, Fred, your gonna blow a head gasket over this, calm down man.

You said about me: I wasn't the one being hypocritical. Rick the Stick was. This has nothing to do with me or Keith. Why bring it up?

Fred, sticks and stones can break my bones but your words can never hurt me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote> Ummm... once again, you've proven that you can't read. Nice job. Larry.

Fred &lt;~~~ you ain't the Rick I know.

KBuck
11-12-2003, 08:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> But let's face it. Mike Sigel is the top dog now and he can expect everyone to be gunning for him. Fans included. Well, that should take a bunch of pressure off of Earl Strickland. LOL.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Jake, I know you're excited about Sigel's win and it's a great accomplishment after such a long layoff but I hardly think that winning a senior event makes him the top dog. When he wins an event with Strickland, Archer, Reyes, Soquet, Pagulayan, Bustamante, etc. in it he might deserve to be called the top dog. LOL

That wasn't even the big tournament on that weekend. Pagulayan won an IBC tournament in Tokyo.

All that aside though he does deserve some hearty congratulations.

Rick the stick
11-12-2003, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr>
This is Rickie, Fred, your gonna blow a head gasket over this, calm down man.

You said about me: I wasn't the one being hypocritical. Rick the Stick was. This has nothing to do with me or Keith. Why bring it up?

Fred, sticks and stones can break my bones but your words can never hurt me. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote> Ummm... once again, you've proven that you can't read. Nice job. Larry.

Fred &lt;~~~ you ain't the Rick I know. <hr /></blockquote>

Fred, bang da boom, yaba daba do... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

grimel
11-12-2003, 07:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What we have here is a pretender who came on ccb and has slowly bribed and conned his way in where a lot of people now think he is some kind of great guru God of instruction and trick shot grand master. Sorry people, but you just got the royal con job put on you.<hr /></blockquote>

Hmm, funny, I don't recall Scott coming in that way at all. Can't really recall Scott doing much at first but replying to how do I? what do I do? Is there a better way? ?? posts.

I'm begining to recall why I wasn't in a big hurry to relocate CCB after my HD crashed over 2yrs ago.

grimel
11-12-2003, 07:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chalks Billiards:</font><hr> bigdawg , thank you for reading my post as it was intended. Your review of my post was quite correct. <hr /></blockquote>

Mike Sigel: On November 1999, billiard digest ranked the top 100 greatest players and Mike Sigel was # 5 on the list.

There are a lot of new players on the boards who are not aware of the position Mr. Sigel holds in the game. Those who have said some unkind things about him IMHO should read the above and then show our greatest player alive today more respect. <hr /></blockquote>

So a BD top 100 is all knowing. Where was Arthur Cranfield on that list? You know Babe, the only man to win Nat'l Jr, Nat'l Am, and Pro world titles, yet managed to have a full time job while his competition played full time?

Hey dufus, MS is an ego maniac. That is neither unkind nor disrespectfull - it's the TRUTH, learn to deal with it.

Rick the stick
11-13-2003, 01:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote grimel:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chalks Billiards:</font><hr> bigdawg , thank you for reading my post as it was intended. Your review of my post was quite correct. <hr /></blockquote>

Mike Sigel: On November 1999, billiard digest ranked the top 100 greatest players and Mike Sigel was # 5 on the list.

There are a lot of new players on the boards who are not aware of the position Mr. Sigel holds in the game. Those who have said some unkind things about him IMHO should read the above and then show our greatest player alive today more respect. <hr /></blockquote>

So a BD top 100 is all knowing. Where was Arthur Cranfield on that list? You know Babe, the only man to win Nat'l Jr, Nat'l Am, and Pro world titles, yet managed to have a full time job while his competition played full time?

Hey dufus, MS is an ego maniac. That is neither unkind nor disrespectfull - it's the TRUTH, learn to deal with it. <hr /></blockquote>


Dufus, ah come on man, yo pickin on da stick now. Yes sir you are right, I have learned to live with every one of Mikes quirks, it is not easy but it can be done. Babe Cranfield, man are you right on that one. I have a hugh file on that guy and a ton of data. He was amazing and put up some stunning high runs that only a handful of people every got to those same run numbers. That guy could play. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fred Agnir
11-13-2003, 07:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> Babe Cranfield, ... was amazing and put up some stunning high runs that only a handful of people every got to those same run numbers. <hr /></blockquote>So, it begs the question. What handful of people ever got to those same numbers? Eufemia? Who else? Are there others that you know of?

Fred

#### leonard
11-13-2003, 08:48 AM
Rick how good am I. I beat the "Babe" in an 800 point match 800 to 797. Coming from behind to score 360 balls in the last block of the Match.####

11-13-2003, 11:43 AM

Fred Agnir
11-13-2003, 11:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred:</font><hr>It's not about me or your dumbass strawman arguments. <hr /></blockquote>

Fred, since you like to accuse everyone of using strawman arguements, I thought I might educate those (including me) who were unsure about what it means.

Bottom line Fred, everytime you start to loose an agrument, you jump in and accuse the other debator of using straw man tacics. <hr /></blockquote>Is it your viewpoint that I was losing an argument? How inattentive of you. When one of the debators starts arguing against a point that I didn't make, that's a strawman. I can't and won't defend that point because it's nothing I said in the first place. Understand that? How could I possibly be losing an argument that I wasn't having?

This normally occurs when someone like yourself or a Fast Rick/Larry decides to argue something or accuse me of saying something that I never said. Reading helps. Not reading comprehension, but simple reading. If you bothered to read, you'd realize that I didn't say the things Rick/Larry is accusing me of saying.

It seem so ridiculously obvious to me, so I say it the easiest way possible: it's a strawman. I can't defend against a strawman, because it simply wasn't anything I said to begin with. In this case, if you were paying any kind of attention or if you bothered to read what I posted (which I seriously doubt) you would have seen that I never said anything bad about Mike Sigel. Yet Rick/Larry is basing an entire Fred-bashing post on the idea that I did. Strawman. Easy to call.

Fred

Fred Agnir
11-13-2003, 12:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr>
We all need to know the
answer to this question!

What/Who is the Straw Man?
by Jesse Enloe - July 28, 1999

Straw man, as defined in Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Edition: A "front"; a third party who is put up in name only to take part in a transaction. <hr /></blockquote>You put that much effort into putting a definition of a completely unrelated "strawman" defintion?

I'll help you out. Do a search for "Strawman fallacy." Then read all of my posts in this thread. See how it played out and why Fast Rick indeed entered a strawman.

Question for you Ray: What was I actually pointing out to Larry the Stick?

Fred

Nostroke
11-13-2003, 12:40 PM
Look Sigel can play and i know he has just started his comeback but i can say in all honesty, it will be years before he plays like me, if ever! No way does he have my game!

Rich R.
11-13-2003, 01:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nostroke:</font><hr> Look Sigel can play and i know he has just started his comeback but i can say in all honesty, it will be years before he plays like me, if ever! No way does he have my game! <hr /></blockquote>
Truer words have never been typed on the CCB. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

However, I think I am in the same class as Nostroke. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Rick the stick
11-13-2003, 01:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> Babe Cranfield, ... was amazing and put up some stunning high runs that only a handful of people every got to those same run numbers. <hr /></blockquote>So, it begs the question. What handful of people ever got to those same numbers? Eufemia? Who else? Are there others that you know of?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Oh Fred, dude, you bait da stick, I am busy right now and can't play with you. I will post Babes high runs soon. Micheal Eufemia holds the worlds high run of 625 balls, Mosconi does not, it's a long story, I have the entire proof package in my files, I researched this one long and hard. It is an amazing story.

Back to the Babe,His high runs were 315, 470-607, he beat everyone of merit during his time. If you want to know if he was for real, Tom Shaw of Pool and Billiards ran 4 full pages on him on oct 1995, go into the archives and read for your self. Glad to aid in your futher education Fred, feel free to call on da stick for anything youse need to know, da stick knows it all dude. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fred Agnir
11-13-2003, 02:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> Babe Cranfield, ... was amazing and put up some stunning high runs that only a handful of people every got to those same run numbers. <hr /></blockquote>So, it begs the question. What handful of people ever got to those same numbers? Eufemia? Who else? Are there others that you know of?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Oh Fred, dude, you bait da stick, I am busy right now and can't play with you. I will post Babes high runs soon. Micheal Eufemia holds the worlds high run of 625 balls, Mosconi does not, it's a long story, I have the entire proof package in my files, I researched this one long and hard. It is an amazing story.

Back to the Babe,His high runs were 315, 470-607, he beat everyone of merit during his time. If you want to know if he was for real, Tom Shaw of Pool and Billiards ran 4 full pages on him on oct 1995, go into the archives and read for your self. Glad to aid in your futher education Fred, feel free to call on da stick for anything youse need to know, da stick knows it all dude. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>You're simply amazing. Amazingly arrogant. Get a hold of yourself. You once again told me nothing new, which is all I ever expect out of you, yet you honestly believe you "educated me" on something. Get a grip. Obviously I know about Eufemia. I mentioned him. And I know that both Cranfield and Eufemia boast higher runs than anyone else. It's still up there quoted, if you want to take a peak. Isn't it obvious the way I phrased the question? "Who else...?" That means "other than Eufemia and Cranfield." And yet, you go on and tell me about Eufemia and Cranfield. Great. At least you "educated" other people who haven't heard the stories.


I'm asking about anyone else, since you implied that there are others that have those kind of high run numbers. Is that so hard to understand? Strike that last question. I know the answer.

Fred &lt;~~~ doesn't think the Stick knows anything new

bluewolf
11-13-2003, 03:00 PM
I did not know what strawman was either, and after all of the verbosity, still not sure. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I thought it was like a scarecrow. BOO!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

Fred Agnir
11-13-2003, 03:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> I did not know what strawman was either, and after all of the verbosity, still not sure. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr /></blockquote>
From various articles written on Strawman Fallacy and other debate tactics used by folks like Fast Rick:

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

The 'Strawman' fallacy consists of creating a flimsy caricature of your opponents view, and then demolishing it, rather than arguing against your opponents actual views.

Strawman Definition:
The author attacks an argument which is different from, and
usually weaker than, the opposition's best argument.

The strawman attack's name comes from the idea of setting up a strawman and knocking it down. The strawman is a false man, metaphorically representing a false argument.

Stawman occurs when the opponent's argument is misrepresented. The appeal of this is that you can create a fake argument which is much easier to knock down than the real one.

--------------------

In this case, Fast Rick is arguing to me about something I never said, or implied:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fast Rick:</font><hr>Fred, don't you like Mike, are you jealous he can play circles around you? What's your problem with dealing with the great ones.

and

When I see a nobody like you tee off on him, ...
Who are you to do that to the great one, Mike Sigel.
<hr /></blockquote>

The above quotes, my dear, are classic "strawman." In this case, my position was that Rick/Larry is being a hypocrite. His response was to make up something that I never implied and addressed that fake issue. I wasn't the one who said anything negative about Mike Sigel in this thread. That was someone else, including Fast Rickie himself.

Fred &lt;~~~ has no problem with Mike Sigel

11-14-2003, 11:59 AM

Fred Agnir
11-14-2003, 12:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote whitewolf:</font><hr> Well, it goes like this: you called Larry a hipocrite for first of all praising Sigel, then blasting his ego, then setting up a straw man, etc. What is so hipocritical about calling John McEnroe a great tennis player in one breath and in another breath saying that he has an ego?<hr /></blockquote> See, here's the big problem. You actually agree with me. But, I guess you couldn't see the forest through the trees.

The hypocrisy was that Larry was getting on someone else's case for insulting Sigel. Then he went on to insult him himself. NOW do you get it? I would have called it "irony" but it wasn't ironic that Larry doesn't have a handle on hypocrisy. It is standard fare for him.

I don't care what anyone's opinion is of Sigel. To each his own. I was simply (but explicitly) pointing out Larry's hypocrisy. It would have been less of a deal if the Larry/Rick could just own up to it and move on. But noooooooo... ad hominems, red herrings, strawman... that's what Larry seems best at.


Fred

#### leonard
11-14-2003, 09:22 PM
I want to put Mike Sigel to bed. MIke Sigel is the most dedicated pool player ever. I have know him since he was a child. He was playing 13 hours a day at 13 years old. Believe me let this matter die.

Picture this your living in the Golf Capital of the World your the greatest poolplayer and the 300 ranked golfer is making 1 million a year and you can't get squat. I couldn't live with that could you.

Just to give you an example. In 1971 I put a pool exhibition on at Hilton Head Island at Sea Pines Plantation. On the second day of my exhibition, I had lunch with the General Manager of the Plantation. During lunch he said to me you had two beers. I looked bewildered at him, he said to me you don't know what I am talking about. No I replied, he said if you were a pro golfer and you were comp the first thing you would have done was order a bottle of Rye,Whiskey,Scotch,Bourbon,Brandy and then left taking it with you. Any time you want to come back just say the word and your in. ####

11-15-2003, 11:48 PM
Congratulations Mike. It's gr8 to see you back competing. Best wishes! Fred

Rick the stick
11-16-2003, 02:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> Babe Cranfield, ... was amazing and put up some stunning high runs that only a handful of people every got to those same run numbers. <hr /></blockquote>So, it begs the question. What handful of people ever got to those same numbers? Eufemia? Who else? Are there others that you know of?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

Oh Fred, dude, you bait da stick, I am busy right now and can't play with you. I will post Babes high runs soon. Micheal Eufemia holds the worlds high run of 625 balls, Mosconi does not, it's a long story, I have the entire proof package in my files, I researched this one long and hard. It is an amazing story.

Back to the Babe,His high runs were 315, 470-607, he beat everyone of merit during his time. If you want to know if he was for real, Tom Shaw of Pool and Billiards ran 4 full pages on him on oct 1995, go into the archives and read for your self. Glad to aid in your futher education Fred, feel free to call on da stick for anything youse need to know, da stick knows it all dude. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>You're simply amazing. Amazingly arrogant. Get a hold of yourself. You once again told me nothing new, which is all I ever expect out of you, yet you honestly believe you "educated me" on something. Get a grip. Obviously I know about Eufemia. I mentioned him. And I know that both Cranfield and Eufemia boast higher runs than anyone else. It's still up there quoted, if you want to take a peak. Isn't it obvious the way I phrased the question? "Who else...?" That means "other than Eufemia and Cranfield." And yet, you go on and tell me about Eufemia and Cranfield. Great. At least you "educated" other people who haven't heard the stories.


I'm asking about anyone else, since you implied that there are others that have those kind of high run numbers. Is that so hard to understand? Strike that last question. I know the answer.

Fred &lt;~~~ doesn't think the Stick knows anything new <hr /></blockquote>


Yo Fred, bang da boom, yabba dabba do, do do...Trying to educate you is a giant waste of my time. You are the head bozo for sure, the grand anatolla bozo. The mother of all bozo's. The grand dragon bozo. Da bozo of all bozo's. Stronger message to follow. Dont mess with da stick, mess with my wa it aint pretty.
Down with all bozo's... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jimmy B
11-17-2003, 04:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cueball1950:</font><hr> By the way, this was the same tournament where mike snapped one of his custom cues in 2 by accident......................mike <hr /></blockquote>

LOL that's funny, were you there? I was there and I can tell you it was not by accident. JB

bluewolf
11-17-2003, 06:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr> I did not know what strawman was either, and after all of the verbosity, still not sure. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

<hr /></blockquote>
From various articles written on Strawman Fallacy and other debate tactics used by folks like Fast Rick:

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

The 'Strawman' fallacy consists of creating a flimsy caricature of your opponents view, and then demolishing it, rather than arguing against your opponents actual views.

Strawman Definition:
The author attacks an argument which is different from, and
usually weaker than, the opposition's best argument.

The strawman attack's name comes from the idea of setting up a strawman and knocking it down. The strawman is a false man, metaphorically representing a false argument.

Fred &lt;~~~ has no problem with Mike Sigel <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for the definition Fred. Personally, I do see that you have a right to your opinion as does rick. This thread is getting allfuly long though!!!! 3000+ views. WOW. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura

Fred Agnir
11-17-2003, 08:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rick the stick:</font><hr> Yo Fred, bang da boom, yabba dabba do, do do...Trying to educate you is a giant waste of my time. You are the head bozo for sure, the grand anatolla bozo. The mother of all bozo's. The grand dragon bozo. Da bozo of all bozo's. Stronger message to follow. <hr /></blockquote> I'm amazed at this point that you have anyone fooled. But, you have your following. If they actually read your posts and mine, they'll see that you've mostly regurgitated common knowledge, common viewpoints, and commonly known stories, yet try to pass them off as your own. Or worse, pass them off as if you're teaching this board something it doesn't already know.

For once, I'd wish you'd tell us something we don't know. I won't hold my breath since I'm convinced you don't know much of anything new or different. Regardless of what you've convinced your followers.

Fred

Fred Agnir
11-17-2003, 08:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>
Thanks for the definition Fred. Personally, I do see that you have a right to your opinion as does rick. This thread is getting allfuly long though!!!! 3000+ views. WOW. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura <hr /></blockquote>What's my opinion? What's Larry's opinion? Did I share an opinion?

Fred

bluewolf
11-17-2003, 02:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fred Agnir:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote bluewolf:</font><hr>
Thanks for the definition Fred. Personally, I do see that you have a right to your opinion as does rick. This thread is getting allfuly long though!!!! 3000+ views. WOW. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura <hr /></blockquote>What's my opinion? What's Larry's opinion? Did I share an opinion?

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

It takes a lot NOT to get a response from you, Fred. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif You are okay. And yes, I did not answer your question, nor do I intend to. I will leave that to you and your antagonist to figure that one out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Laura