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Chris in NC
11-01-2003, 10:25 AM
I just received and read my new issue of Inside Pool, including the article on the U.S. Open. I love this magazine, however I'm not sure exactly what I think about the magazine exposing all the action and open gambling that went on during the week - including details as to the players involved, the spots given, the outcomes, etc., etc.

Yes, it's certainly the kind of stuff we who follow the sport (and the professional circuit) closely love to know. However, is it in the best interest of the game to expose it like this in a nationally distributed magazine promoting our sport?

The players themselves are probably not thrilled about this info getting aired so publicly - if for no other reason than divulging this info on spots given by certain players and how they faired may make it harder for some of them to get favorable match-ups in the future. Shouldn't the magazine respect the privacy of these players, or are they just interested in selling issues?

The fact that they exposed not only the action at Q-Masters, but the open line gambling for anyone interested in placing a bet on the U.S. Open tournament matches is probably info that those behind the scenes who run (and profit from) this operation would rather not be known quite so publicly.

I realize there are various opinions on this topic. All of us who've been to tournaments have known that it not only takes place, but it's one of the aspects that makes going to these tournaments so exciting - including the spectator's opportunity of being able to wager on matches if they so choose.

Just curious what others here think as to the appropriateness of Inside Pool's decision to expose this? Obviously they see no problem with it. I realize that starting this post in itself further exposes the activity, but I think it's an important issue that needs to be discussed.

Wally_in_Cincy
11-01-2003, 10:44 AM
I see a long thread coming so I'll go ahead and put my 2 cents in and step aside.

It seems there has always been an unwritten rule, at least on this forum, to not post specifics about money won/lost.

IMO probably not a good move by Inside Pool.

Isn't Mr. Behrman in the pokey for, in part, illegal gambling?

Scott Lee
11-01-2003, 10:55 AM
Chris...You already know how I feel about gambling and pool. However, that aside, if they're gonna do it (gamble) in public...let alone "woof" about to any that want to listen...then IP has a right to report it. Don't want people to know?...gamble in PRIVATE! JMO

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
11-01-2003, 11:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr>

Isn't Mr. Behrman in the pokey for, in part, illegal gambling? <hr /></blockquote>

Wally...NOPE! Barry only got a fine for illegal gambling.
He is in jail for violating his probabion (failed drug tests) THREE times since his trial. I was just talking with Willie Jopling about this very thing yesterday. Personally, I applaud Brady for wanting to help his dad...but Barry has to want to help himself FIRST! Drug addiction, alcohol addiction, nicotine addiction...they
are all the same. You can't quit until you really want to!
JMO

Scott Lee

Tom_In_Cincy
11-01-2003, 11:03 AM
Chris,
I have mixed emotions about this.

First, Inside Pool magazine has got some of the BEST coverage printed about all the major tournaments.

To include the gambling portion of these events (esp. at the US Open) did take me by surprize. But, I did read it, and wondered if it was going to continue. I saw some of the matchups that were reported and the accuracy is IMO, correct.
Gambling has been a part of Pool (like it or not) since I can remember and probably a lot longer that that.

But, I can never remember (except in old stories published) any reporting of such current activities in recent times.

IIRC there was a 'blurb' in Inside Pool, on the Tony Watson and Eric Durbin matchups at the DDC this last January.

I like the info, will probably look forward to it, but at the same time, wonder how the gamblers will react (if at all?).

The image of Pool at the Professional level is at the very least, blue collar.

I wonder how Niels F.'s association with his countries Olympic sponsorship might be affected? Seems that should be a code of conduct when representing your country?

I am sure this article will NOT have a positive effect on Pool's reputation. But, it might raise some more interest.

Rick the stick
11-01-2003, 12:15 PM
Publishing names and large amounts of money won, and odds being given, is just asking for it. That should never be done, the IRS or the cops or both are going to end up on your door step, they play pool and read this stuff just like you and I do.

JimS
11-01-2003, 03:25 PM
Seems to me that IP could report on the gambling without going into details like what kinda shorts the players had on. I think they are trying to sell mags at the expense of the players. Bad form! I don't trust IP anymore. Runnin their mouths.......

bolo
11-01-2003, 04:41 PM
I totally agree, gambling at pool tournaments is about as well kept a secret as Liberace being gay. We all know about it, but it is just not discussed. And when did it become the business of the magazine to publish things about the players outside of their tournament activities. Have they become Paparazzi's? I can't believe the players would care for other aspects of their personal lives being discussed. Is the mag now a rag?

cueball1950
11-01-2003, 08:50 PM
I agree and disagree. LOL.. Yes it happens and no it should not be put into print.. I can remember when they had to shut down a calcutta somewhere once cuz the cops were all over the place cuz someone called and told the police when and where it was going to happen. and the TD did not want to take any chances. And that is only a calcutta. Onlt time will tell what effect this will have. Hell i have heard stories about golfers hustling out there. And that was told by Lee Trevino. About how much money he made before turning pro. Every golf course has gambling all the time. just never publicized. So lets see what happens........mike

ManlyShot
11-01-2003, 09:09 PM
Going to Q-Masters pool room and watching the action is just as much a part of the U.S. Open experience as watching the matches at the Chesapeake Conference Center.

I went back and re-read the article, but didn't see anything about money exchanging hands. I enjoyed reading the match-ups and all the smut (JMO). As far as the lines, they have pool player lines on the Internet now. The article was just about what happens inside pool (no pun intended).

ManlyShot

sack316
11-02-2003, 02:01 AM
hmmm, an issue I'm torn on here. It is their right to report it, but also as "pool people" they should also respect that certain unwritten rule as well. But then again, if they report it as truth, then their side of the story would probably be tame as compared the the stories told by John Doe that happend to be watching and tells all his friends and it blows up into some big urban legend of a match. For example, true story:
I am about to leave after a match, I waive by to a friend that is playing some kid that is pretty good, they've been playing maybe 10 minutes at this point. As I am leaving a friend comes up and asks why i am leaving when they are playing for $20 a rack. I just say its not unheard of for him to play for money, 20 isn't a big deal for him. Still before I can leave someone else comes up and says, "Hey, did you hear Tommy and that kid are playing a race to 5 for $500?" Now I'm interested and feeling obligated to stay, just in case of any trouble, I grab my partner who was just told the same thing and we sit and watch, into every shot, emotions running high, and wondering why our friend is shooting as bad as he is. Maybe its the money getting to him. Then we find out that actually it is a race to 7 for I think it was $50, or some amount around there. Anyway, my point was that in under 15 minutes the Joe Schmoe's had turned a small game into a huge deal.
Bottom line I guess I do tend to agree with whoever said that if they don't want anybody knowing the details, then play in private.
Thanks for hangin out with me!!

stickman
11-02-2003, 06:06 AM
I don't think publishing such details is a good idea. I can't imagine Golf Digest doing something like this. Part of the problem is that it is done so openly, and the participants like to woof about their winnings. I don't think the gambling will ever stop, but the participants would be better off to keep it a little more confidential.

NH_Steve
11-02-2003, 07:06 AM
IIRC Grady was pretty upset and very clear about telling people to zip it a couple of years ago when some sweaters posted details of after hours matchups -- including the specific $$. I believe his concern boiled down to how hard it is to scratch a living playing pool already, without that kind of unwanted publicity interfering.

Those of us that like to sweat the action, need the players to be willing to step up for the action -- why can't we be satisfied with seeing first hand, or hearing about it more discreetly -- why risk killing it by splashing it out there for any Tom, Dick , Harry, the IRS, the local police, or worse yet, armed robbery like what happened to Tony Watson last year /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif Weren't the Johnson City tournaments busted up pretty much directly as a result of the TV spotlight the year before?

cheesemouse
11-02-2003, 09:03 AM
I think Inside Pool is headed in the right direction,

I have seen pool go thru numerous highs and lows. The first I remember is in the 60's when the Wide World of Sports started doing shows with Willy &amp; Fats, probably a result of the popularity of the Hustler movie. I'm sure the best minds in the pool industry took advantage of this new interest as well as they could, putting out new products, opening new facilities, running more tournaments and other things I couldn't see....as a result of this new interest in the game I'm sure many people came to the game that normally would not have but it didn't last long and interest faded.
The next surge that I noticed was another popular movie, the Color of Money. A new set of the best minds set out to chase the dollars that could be rung out of this new interest. The same process repeated itself. More tournaments and then probably the best thing for the game new rules and local league play started to pop up across the country. Many new upscale poolhalls were opening. It became trendy to be a gambling 9baller, it was cool. The result of Tom Cruise swinging his Balabuska increased the demand for custom cues and resulted in the addition of hundreds of craftsman going into the making of fine looking cues. Every banger had to have a fancy stick, every one wanted a home table....the people that could fullfil this demand made out good......interest faded.
Along comes the hot looking chicks playing pool on TV and playing good too...interest started to rise but too a whole new client, women......the industry had stumbled on a new source of profits, the ladys. The ph had opened its doors to the other half. Now guys could actually get laid if they played good enough. The ladys want to learn how to play but didn't know how to go about it so they naturally took the path of least resistance, they hooked up with guys that could play so they could learn the game. The industry filled the void with more products and better facilities. The trendy theme ph's start popping up across the country. Good food, blended cocktails, nice decor, barboxes everywhere, music blaring, higher prices for the pool hall dating crowd. More cue makers, case makers, tip taper makers, clothes makers, table makers, cloth makers, rack makers, more and better leagues( the alphebet soup of organizations for ameturs to play in), regional barbox tournaments supplied by semis full of seven footers traveling the country...this is where its at now...
What is missing?......The best players in the game still don't make enough money to support their love for the game w/o supplementing their incomes by gambling. There maybe ten players in the world that make a living better than the average plumber with the prize money they win a year and maybe only five of those ten do it year after year. The puzzling question is why is that so?....I think it is so because the pool industry doesn't support the best in the game. They don't love the game they love the money.
Gambling is what sprouts world class pool players, gambling is where the skill is fine tuned. You name me one top player, man or women who did not come thru this training ground and I will kiss your ass on main street at high noon. You can't hide this fact, so why deny it. I think pool and the powers that be should shine the light on this reality, it's sexy, it's exciting, it's glamorous, it's dangerous but most of all it's the truth.....some can't handle the truth...If you want pool to leap the next hurdle into the big dollars of corporate support tell the truth, if it's sexy enough it will sell and the money will follow.
Let the games begin.......LOL

Chris in NC
11-02-2003, 09:50 AM
Cheesemouse, WOW, what a passionate post! How long did that take you? You should be a writer for IP. Considering the success of ESPN's World Championship Poker, I think you're probably right-on. - Chris in NC

ManlyShot
11-02-2003, 10:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> I think Inside Pool is headed in the right direction...If you want pool to leap the next hurdle into the big dollars of corporate support tell the truth, if it's sexy enough it will sell and the money will follow.<hr /></blockquote>

Thus, why news magazine shows on TV are successful because of those inquiring minds who want to know. After all, it is what goes on inside pool, and Inside Pool just covered the news for its full spectrum of readers. I agree with Cheesemouse.

ManlyShot

dg-in-centralpa
11-02-2003, 11:35 AM
I agree with most of the posts as to the good points and bad points of the wagering going on. Personally I would be afraid of how much was wagered being printed, if some unscrupulous person saw this, now they know how much of a bankroll some people are carrying, and could get robbed.

DG - just my 2 cents

Sally
11-03-2003, 09:59 AM
Wow.

I had to go back and re-read that sidebar. And I'm mystified as to where the controversy is here. There were no amounts mentioned anywhere in that article. It was simply a colorful account of what went on at Q-Masters during the week of the Open. Richie Richeson lost at one-pocket to Gabe Owen and Scott Frost. Hennessee got the 7 from Niels Feijen. Deuel and Immonen played rotation. Heavens to Betsey!

Like it or not, gambling at events does happen. If we were to write about it, some people will squawk that it's Bad for the Image of the Game. If we leave it out, some people will squawk that we're not realistic and merely sugar-coating the truth. Since I can't please everyone all the time, I thought that the majority would be interested in it.

I hope I wasn't wrong.

RedHell
11-03-2003, 10:30 AM
Sally,

I don't see anything wrong. What IP did is reporting what was going on, which is what we expect from IP. Yes as reporters you have to tell the truth and choose what you will report on.

Anyone who wants to believe that reporting gambling hurts the game should realise that it's not the reporting, but the gambling that hurts the game. Personnaly I don't believe that gambling hurts the game.

The people outside the game I talk to don't want to know how a player made a certain shot to beat another player. They like stories where players match up for hours in consecutive days with huge amount of money.

As for those who says giving lines away hurt the player trying to make a living, well if that player is trying to hide his speed to get an avantage on a matchup, he's hustling !

Hustlers hurts the game, they take advantage of people and no one likes that.

IP did right ! And I hope they keep doing it.

Rich R.
11-03-2003, 10:53 AM
Sally, I had to go back and re-read the story also.
I honestly cannot see what all the fuss is about. Yes, the story did acknowledge that players were gambling. Duh, let's not call the national guard quite yet. I don't think that would be a surprise to anyone, including the local police. If you reported that no one was gambling, everyone would be rolling in the isles.
I went over the article looking for amounts, but couldn't find them.

I thought the article reported the truth and was done in good taste.

Scott Lee
11-03-2003, 11:38 AM
Sally...Ditto! Keep up the good work!

Scott

Vagabond
11-03-2003, 09:17 PM
Howdy chris,
I know JR.Calvert very well.He is not dumb and he knows what he is doing.The magazine is not obligated legally or morally.Time will tell whether this is a good buisiness move or not.Cheers
Vagabond /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

JimS
11-03-2003, 10:36 PM
I went back and re-read the whole thread, including my contribution and I owe Inside Pool an apology. I ran my mouth without knowing what I as talking about. I haven't recieved my issue yet, hadn't read the article and somehow got the impression in my reading of this thread that "confidences" were being betrayed.

I apologize for any unfriendly words I posted earlier in this thread and I wish to hell I'd keep my mouth shut when I don't know what I'm talkin about.

Barbara
11-03-2003, 10:46 PM
JimS,

I have some back issues of IP.

Pm me with your address and you got 'em!!!

Barbara

Ken
11-04-2003, 07:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> gambling is where the skill is fine tuned. You name me one top player, man or women who did come thru this training ground and I will kiss your ass on main street at high noon. <hr /></blockquote>

I name Earl. I will pass on accepting the kiss and I ask instead that Charlie take my place on Main Street.

All this talk of the police is misplaced. As is the case in many states it is perfectly legal for participants to put up money and play each other in a game of skill. If that were not legal there would be no tournaments where you play for your entry fee.

The State of Virginia has the following law:

" 18.2-333. Exceptions to article; certain sporting events. Nothing in this article shall be construed to prevent any contest of speed or skill between men, animals, fowl or vehicles, where participants may receive prizes or different percentages of a purse, stake or premium dependent upon whether they win or lose or dependent upon their position or score at the end of such contest."

Arguments may be made as to the moral implication of people putting up stake money and then playing each other for it but please at least recognize that it is not a criminal activity in Virginia.

Commenting on "details as to the players involved, the spots given, the outcomes" does not involve illegal activity if it is only between the players. Give us the details.
Ken in CT

Billy
11-04-2003, 08:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ken:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> gambling is where the skill is fine tuned. You name me one top player, man or women who did come thru this training ground and I will kiss your ass on main street at high noon. <hr /></blockquote>

I name Earl. I will pass on accepting the kiss and I ask instead that Charlie take my place on Main Street.


Ken in CT
<hr /></blockquote>

if you think Earl did not gamble you're mistaken

Ralf Souquet is a better pick imo

CW can still take his place though /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Fred Agnir
11-04-2003, 08:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Ken:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> gambling is where the skill is fine tuned. You name me one top player, man or women who did notcome thru this training ground and I will kiss your ass on main street at high noon. <hr /></blockquote>

I name Earl. <hr /></blockquote>

Although Earl doesn't like gambling, he most certainly gambled according to his many interviews in several magazines. Here's one online:

http://www.azbilliards.com/interviews/earl3.html

He grew up gambling. Not that it's a bad thing.

Fred

Billy
11-04-2003, 08:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cheesemouse:</font><hr> I think Inside Pool is headed in the right direction,

I have seen pool go thru numerous highs and lows. The first I remember is in the 60's when the Wide World of Sports started doing shows with Willy &amp; Fats, probably a result of the popularity of the Hustler movie. I'm sure the best minds in the pool industry took advantage of this new interest as well as they could, putting out new products, opening new facilities, running more tournaments and other things I couldn't see....as a result of this new interest in the game I'm sure many people came to the game that normally would not have but it didn't last long and interest faded.
The next surge that I noticed was another popular movie, the Color of Money. A new set of the best minds set out to chase the dollars that could be rung out of this new interest. The same process repeated itself. More tournaments and then probably the best thing for the game new rules and local league play started to pop up across the country. Many new upscale poolhalls were opening. It became trendy to be a gambling 9baller, it was cool. The result of Tom Cruise swinging his Balabuska increased the demand for custom cues and resulted in the addition of hundreds of craftsman going into the making of fine looking cues. Every banger had to have a fancy stick, every one wanted a home table....the people that could fullfil this demand made out good......interest faded.
Along comes the hot looking chicks playing pool on TV and playing good too...interest started to rise but too a whole new client, women......the industry had stumbled on a new source of profits, the ladys. The ph had opened its doors to the other half. Now guys could actually get laid if they played good enough. The ladys want to learn how to play but didn't know how to go about it so they naturally took the path of least resistance, they hooked up with guys that could play so they could learn the game. The industry filled the void with more products and better facilities. The trendy theme ph's start popping up across the country. Good food, blended cocktails, nice decor, barboxes everywhere, music blaring, higher prices for the pool hall dating crowd. More cue makers, case makers, tip taper makers, clothes makers, table makers, cloth makers, rack makers, more and better leagues( the alphebet soup of organizations for ameturs to play in), regional barbox tournaments supplied by semis full of seven footers traveling the country...this is where its at now...
What is missing?......The best players in the game still don't make enough money to support their love for the game w/o supplementing their incomes by gambling. There maybe ten players in the world that make a living better than the average plumber with the prize money they win a year and maybe only five of those ten do it year after year. The puzzling question is why is that so?....I think it is so because the pool industry doesn't support the best in the game. They don't love the game they love the money.
Gambling is what sprouts world class pool players, gambling is where the skill is fine tuned. You name me one top player, man or women who did not come thru this training ground and I will kiss your ass on main street at high noon. You can't hide this fact, so why deny it. I think pool and the powers that be should shine the light on this reality, it's sexy, it's exciting, it's glamorous, it's dangerous but most of all it's the truth.....some can't handle the truth...If you want pool to leap the next hurdle into the big dollars of corporate support tell the truth, if it's sexy enough it will sell and the money will follow.
Let the games begin.......LOL <hr /></blockquote>

good post Mr Cheese

a good reporter will report the true facts as they happen,not sugar coat them

we gamble in our sport,they booked openly thru out the event,players like to match up - what's the big deal?

jmo

Ken
11-04-2003, 01:22 PM
Post deleted by Ken

Chris in NC
11-04-2003, 01:42 PM
I stand by my original post in questioning the appropriateness of IP in reporting the gambling activity at Chesapeake.

And yes, there is mention of the wagering taking place during the U.S. Open matches. A direct quote from page 40 - "Not only did he (referring to KM) get the 3rd place loot, but he bet big on himself in his show-stopping performance against Jose Parica under the TV lights. Others went back and forth with the lines, as the juice piled up with underdog showings that confounded the sweaters to earn a killing for the savvy odds makers."

To my thinking, that's pretty obviously crossing the line of what should be reported by a responsible pool magazine covering the event, unless they wish to stir up trouble for those involved.

All I'm looking for is maybe a little admittance from someone connected to the magazine that perhaps at least those few sentences in the article were a bad decision to print, and we can leave it there.

Ken
11-04-2003, 02:00 PM
Post deleted by Ken

eg8r
11-04-2003, 02:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
All I'm looking for is maybe a little admittance from someone connected to the magazine that perhaps at least those few sentences in the article were a bad decision to print, and we can leave it there. <hr /></blockquote> Sort of like..."OK Chris you are right and we are wrong. We are sorry for doing this, and we will consult you on further editorial issues". Maybe you could then reply with a, " I told you so." /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I do remember Grady getting very hot of this type of stuff, but I think that is because $ amounts were mentioned. I agree, if this is something that should be kept a secret, then by gosh don't do it in public. If it is going on in a public pool hall (private establishment but the public is free to come and go) out in the open, then you are fair game.

Chris, maybe if you get some extra time, you could pop over to the Non-Pool related side and complain about the paparazzi and some of the stuff they report. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r &lt;~~~Giving Chris a hard time because I don't see a problem with reporting something that is happening out in the open with all the public to see

eg8r
11-04-2003, 02:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe we are the only ones who read it and it doesn't matter. So much for trying to get pool into the mainstream and perhaps turn it into a family activity.
Ken in CT <hr /></blockquote> Hello Ken, I personally understand the point you and Chris are trying to make, however where does your point make anything "right". "So much for trying to get pool in mainstream", what does this have to do with the reporting? Let's say IP did not do the article and some family decided that this might be a nice trip to take next year. Then when they get there, they see the gambling. Did the exclusion of this article by IP help this family out in any way at all.

I think you guys are attacking the wrong issue. If the gambling was removed from the establishment and not in the public eye, then there would be nothing to report on. This would make more sense than complaining about a magazing truthfully reporting the events that took place. I definitely can see the hardship in trying to make that happen since most pool players enjoy those stories, however I do not fault IP for reporting on the activities that happened.

eg8r

Tom_In_Cincy
11-04-2003, 02:27 PM
DAMN... I hate to do this.. but I have to agree with eg8r.

Pool news is what the all the major pool rags present.

As long as the rags don't misrepresent or LIE about it, it's NEWS.

Look at this way, if you want to do something about it (the gambling at these tournaments), now you have some 'news coverage' to use. The more of this type of news being reported, maybe that will fuel changes in future tournaments. At the very least, the gambling will move to a PRIVATE venue, rather than in the open where it can be reported.

Chris in NC
11-04-2003, 04:57 PM
If you were at the Open you would know that the bookmaking operation on the matches (last time I knew it was illegal) was not going on out in public (as some suggest), but in the privacy of the player's lounge. Those running the book at least had the common sense to try to keep it under wraps, as opposed to years past. That's what shocked me about why it was even mentioned in the article by Inside Pool.

Although JR Calvert or Sally didn't write the article, I'm sure someone edited the article and are/is responsible for it's content, yet apparently decided that exposing this in print was OK.

For Sally to post earlier on this thread that she doesn't see what the controversy is here regarding the article, IMO shows a lack of common sense that perhaps they should have left this out. I don't expect an explanation from anyone representing the magazine, as I suggested in my previous post.

Rick the stick
11-04-2003, 05:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bolo:</font><hr> I totally agree, gambling at pool tournaments is about as well kept a secret as Liberace being gay. We all know about it, but it is just not discussed. And when did it become the business of the magazine to publish things about the players outside of their tournament activities. Have they become Paparazzi's? I can't believe the players would care for other aspects of their personal lives being discussed. Is the mag now a rag? <hr /></blockquote>


Liberace gay, oh no bolo, say it aint so.............
The next thing you will tell me is Rock Hudson and James Dean were. Richard Chamberlin who was a priest in the thornbirds, I cannot buy that. bolo, you like to smear people, who's gay on the board, who are the gay players, smear some more people. When you are done with that, go after any one who holds a NRA card, you can make a new career out of this. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ken
11-04-2003, 05:48 PM
Chris,

Thank you for clarifying that the gambling was not out in the open. When you mentioned the "open line gambling for anyone interested" it gave me the impression that you were describing gambling that was out in the open for anyone who might be interested.

When you mentioned "those behind the scenes" that gave me the impression that there were indeed scenes that could be viewed by anyone walking by, as I have noticed at events I have attended.

Now it appears that the whole process was conducted out of the view of the public. That is exactly how I think it should be conducted. In that case, I think IP should have respected the intent of the participants to remain unseen and not publicize it.

I still have difficulty seeing how there can be people behind the scenes if there are no scenes visible to the public. It looks like there were no scenes at all.
KenCT

Vagabond
11-04-2003, 07:47 PM
Howdy folks,
Inside pool magazine should not be judged under different standards.Newspapers publish all kinds of news.Billiard magazine also should be able to publish all the things that happen in our sub culture.Lighten up America.Cheers
vagabond

Rich R.
11-05-2003, 05:28 AM
Chris, you have a lot of nerve accusing Sally of not having common sense. She is the editor of a major magazine, reporting about pool tournaments and all the happenings around them. This is what the media is suppose to do. News papers give odds and betting lines all the time. Do you think, that when you read the Cowboys are a 6 point favorite over the Redskins, that is for recreation?
It seems you are the one without common sense.

You were also the one,not long ago, on this public forum, discussing your teenage sons gambling in your own pool room. As I recall, you not only had no problem with it, but you encouraged it.
That was an excellent advertisement for "Family Billiards." /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Chris, I am sorry to say, I think it is time to look at your own common sense and stop throwing stones at some one else's glass house.

pooltchr
11-05-2003, 06:57 AM
I wanted to wait until I had a chance to read the issue before commenting. I really don't see anything wrong with what was written. There were a lot of general comments about the action, but you have to consider that, ONE, people who read IP , BD, and P&amp;B are serious pool players. I doubt very seriously that a casual social player would pay $4 to read any of them, and even less likely that the soccor mom with 2.5 kids even knows the magazine exists. TWO, The people who read this article already know what goes on at pool tournaments, and won't be shocked to learn this "news". I think they did a good job of covering several different aspects of the open. They even gave coverage to a group of people who post on a BB that is run by a competing magazine!

I spoke with JR back when IP was just starting, and he told me his goal was to make a magazine that was designed to give pool players the scoop on what was going on all over the country at all levels, not just the same old stuff that often is designed to promote the large industry companies. I think that they are doing a great job.

Ken
11-05-2003, 07:04 AM
Rich,
You make some interesting points but let me point out:

1. Sally described the article and conveniently left out their reporting on the "illegal gambling" and implied that the article was only about the legal wagering between players. She was clearly dishonest.

2. The "gambling" you mention in your second paragraph is most likely not illegal in North Carolina. Any state that allows players to put up their money and play for it (as in tournaments) must also permit two people to do the same among themselves.

Sally's attempt to sugar coat their article and the fact that they chose to report on illegal activities (which she ignored in her reply) is the real issue here and should not be confused with the legal wagering that they reported on. We now know that any such activities were done in private and I think it is best for the industry if they are kept private.

If any of the players had side bets we would have no way of knowing whether those bets were legal or not unless IP decides to publish details that are really not necessary. I don't know how many times I have to say it, but it can be legal to bet on the outcome of a game of pool.
KenCT

eg8r
11-05-2003, 07:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If you were at the Open you would know that the bookmaking operation on the matches (last time I knew it was illegal) was not going on out in public (as some suggest), but in the privacy of the player's lounge. Those running the book at least had the common sense to try to keep it under wraps, as opposed to years past. That's what shocked me about why it was even mentioned in the article by Inside Pool. <hr /></blockquote> I am sorry. I read your post wrong originally and thought this was all happening out in the open. I still feel that if people are worried about their illegal activities being exposed, then the issue is not with the messenger...The problem is with those acting illegally. Do you agree??? Or do you think, everything is better if those acting illegally can continue as long as no one reports it?

eg8r

Fred Agnir
11-05-2003, 08:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> There were a lot of general comments about the action, but you have to consider that, ONE, people who read IP , BD, and P&amp;B are serious pool players. I doubt very seriously that a casual social player would pay $4 to read any of them, and even less likely that the soccor mom with 2.5 kids even knows the magazine exists. <hr /></blockquote>
I agree with this 100%.

When the first Challenge of Champions went off on ESPN (Mike LeBron was the inaugural champion), the commentators made no bones about the openly discussing the betting line. It seemed to add excitement. I don't think it turned people off to pool.

So, here are my questions.

Is sports line betting legal or illegal in the state of Virginia?

Does the report of gambling and action in pool in a pool magazine or pool forum affect positively or negatively the pool subculture?

Does the report of gambling and action in pool in a pool magazine or pool forum affect postively or negatively the non-pool culture?

I know many of us like to hear the stories. I've got nothing but positive feedback on a few of my own. Books like Playing Off the Rail, McGoorty, and several other books on books on pool are replete with gambling. Is there a difference between reading about action and reading about a betting line?

If anything, IMO, reports on a betting line isn't as exciting as reports on woofing and betting high. So, IMO, the article was just a report. I didn't see it glamorized, and I didn't see it harping on any negative aspects of it.

Fred

Rich R.
11-05-2003, 09:02 AM
Ken, I can appreciate your points. However, every evening, on the local news, I hear a sports report which includes betting lines. You can also get betting lines every day in the newspaper. I don't know about your state, but sports betting is illegal in Maryland. Although it is most likely illegal in Virginia, I don't think reporting the betting lines in a magazine should be criticized. It is a part of current sports culture, for better or worse.

If the people involved, want to keep it secret, I believe they could do a much better job of it.
Personally, I don't get involved with the betting, so it doesn't bother me, if it is in the open or in secret. However, like many others, I do find the betting lines, to be interesting information.

In my second paragraph, the point I was trying to make, is that Chris should not be accusing others of poor common sense. IMHO, approving of and encouraging your teenage son to gamble, whether legal or illegal, is NOT good common sense.

I don't mean to come of as if I am anti gambling here. I have done my share and more. If Chris thought the gambling at the Open should have been kept more secretive, he never should have started this thread. It only brings more attention to it.

RUNaRAK
11-05-2003, 09:37 AM
I agree with Fred. I found the article very interesting and did not see it as shedding a bad light on the sport. A big part of why I love the game is getting the chance to watch action matches. Even though I am not a bettor, I enjoy watching the other guys sweat it out.
I have watche Eric Durbin play for some sick amounts of cash in our home pool hall. It is a blast to watch. "Hard to understand how a kid that has never had a "job" can play for more cash than I make in a month? LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Sure is entertaining and exciting to watch.

Keep me informed IP. I can only speak for myself, but I enjoy keeping up on all of the action!

Peace,

strawman
12-06-2003, 07:48 AM
Assembled,

I cannot describe how wonderful it was to read this thread. My name is Paul, and if you dig up that November issue, you'll find that name attached to both the CCB and action sidebars. That's what we call them in the trade ... I've been hacking journalism since I was sixteen, writing about politics, music, odds and ends ...

Pool is a great love for me, and when Sally mentioned in passing that there had been a discussion of these issues, I rushed to type a monstrous reply, breaking a cardinal rule. I didn't read the source material first, and I went on my gut. Luckily, many of you already addressed all of the points I would have made in my defense. I'll save that screed for my own library on ethics in journalism, and how to mix promotion of things I love with a cold fire for getting to the bone of any story I go into. The juxtaposition of the two assignments, and my kid gloves color piece on Behrman, was surreal.

And I mentioned that air conditioning deal; I had to work in it too. In another thread about the pictures from the board's tournament, I noticed someone thought I was unaware of your plight, while I actually took a priceless picture of a fellow named Mike tucking his head back by his bridge elbow, pantomiming a no-look shot as the lights went down again. A quality flash maneuver, rare in my style of photography ...

Anyway, here is my diminished reply, now that the ineffable and commendable "cheese mouse" character utilized most of my arguments. The Jansco brothers are a great history lesson, but the moral character of the nation is a very different one now. I believe in the interest of truth above all else in my writing, but have made many compromises in the interest of decency to a subject. These two unshakable facets of the decisions I made as a writer when going a certain distance with the piece have been examined well by this body.

The only lasting charge I felt was untouched in these considerations is whether I compromised the tight ship of the oddsmakers. I'll ask each of them the next time I see them, deal? If they're threatened by tidings of the obvious, I'd be very surprised. My notes are defended in this strange nation, so the names and numbers are mine for posterity. As far as jeopardizing their operations, if they were not already taking massive risks walking around a scene controlled by a local court regular, I would feel like a muckraker.

And deepest thanks for the examination. Many of you probably know JR better than I do, but you are right in lauding his decisions with Inside POOL Magazine. His vision is superb, and as a veteran of uprisings in musical trends, political activist circles, teachers' unions and countless other shifts in the world, I think he will help bring pool towards its goals. Niels would have to bet on a match representing his country to break any rules, as the onus on the individual is one of the stark aspects of pool that absolve him from soiling his flag here. Just my opinion, and perhaps in certain lights, just my mistakes.

For now, I try to appreciate the beauty of what the game is, and depict it accurately. It may be exactly what it needs; Grady has called for shows to rival the trend of organized card gambling as a next step, so his own mind is probably as conflicted and balanced as any of us who contemplate our roles in carrying pool forward. Each of us brings our own contribution to the poolroom with our head just as much as with our wallets and cue cases, and spreads views and approaches that culminate in change. I like to think I've managed some good efforts on that score.

Thanks for the interest, and when I read about Spike taking the magazine to school, I felt a little warmth in my cold pressman's heart. Y'all should thank Sally for editing me, because I would've drove some of you into convulsions with the backroom junk and industry politics I'd like to have elaborated on in six months out on the road. The East Coast is what I'd call a brutal beat.

Lastly, anyone who wants their picture from Q-Masters and played in the tournament, there is a high degree of chance that I took a good one of you. I think 14 out of 18 players ... I don't know, but e-mail if you desire one. It may take me a while to get at it, as I lead a bizarre life between the poolroom and the desk.

And 9-ball Girl could've straightened the whole thing out in Queens, where I was acting like a wildlife photographer. I'm always very edgy in NYC, and incognito is the preferred modus operandi for picking the best spot on the wall to dive into the ointment from.

A human fly,
Paul Berg
staff writer, Inside POOL Magazine
Gonzo journalist at large

Billy
12-06-2003, 11:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote strawman:</font><hr> Assembled,

I cannot describe how wonderful it was to read this thread. My name is Paul, and if you dig up that November issue, you'll find that name attached to both the CCB and action sidebars. That's what we call them in the trade ... I've been hacking journalism since I was sixteen, writing about politics, music, odds and ends ...

Pool is a great love for me, and when Sally mentioned in passing that there had been a discussion of these issues, I rushed to type a monstrous reply, breaking a cardinal rule. I didn't read the source material first, and I went on my gut. Luckily, many of you already addressed all of the points I would have made in my defense. I'll save that screed for my own library on ethics in journalism, and how to mix promotion of things I love with a cold fire for getting to the bone of any story I go into. The juxtaposition of the two assignments, and my kid gloves color piece on Behrman, was surreal.

And I mentioned that air conditioning deal; I had to work in it too. In another thread about the pictures from the board's tournament, I noticed someone thought I was unaware of your plight, while I actually took a priceless picture of a fellow named Mike tucking his head back by his bridge elbow, pantomiming a no-look shot as the lights went down again. A quality flash maneuver, rare in my style of photography ...

Anyway, here is my diminished reply, now that the ineffable and commendable "cheese mouse" character utilized most of my arguments. The Jansco brothers are a great history lesson, but the moral character of the nation is a very different one now. I believe in the interest of truth above all else in my writing, but have made many compromises in the interest of decency to a subject. These two unshakable facets of the decisions I made as a writer when going a certain distance with the piece have been examined well by this body.

The only lasting charge I felt was untouched in these considerations is whether I compromised the tight ship of the oddsmakers. I'll ask each of them the next time I see them, deal? If they're threatened by tidings of the obvious, I'd be very surprised. My notes are defended in this strange nation, so the names and numbers are mine for posterity. As far as jeopardizing their operations, if they were not already taking massive risks walking around a scene controlled by a local court regular, I would feel like a muckraker.

And deepest thanks for the examination. Many of you probably know JR better than I do, but you are right in lauding his decisions with Inside POOL Magazine. His vision is superb, and as a veteran of uprisings in musical trends, political activist circles, teachers' unions and countless other shifts in the world, I think he will help bring pool towards its goals. Niels would have to bet on a match representing his country to break any rules, as the onus on the individual is one of the stark aspects of pool that absolve him from soiling his flag here. Just my opinion, and perhaps in certain lights, just my mistakes.

For now, I try to appreciate the beauty of what the game is, and depict it accurately. It may be exactly what it needs; Grady has called for shows to rival the trend of organized card gambling as a next step, so his own mind is probably as conflicted and balanced as any of us who contemplate our roles in carrying pool forward. Each of us brings our own contribution to the poolroom with our head just as much as with our wallets and cue cases, and spreads views and approaches that culminate in change. I like to think I've managed some good efforts on that score.

Thanks for the interest, and when I read about Spike taking the magazine to school, I felt a little warmth in my cold pressman's heart. Y'all should thank Sally for editing me, because I would've drove some of you into convulsions with the backroom junk and industry politics I'd like to have elaborated on in six months out on the road. The East Coast is what I'd call a brutal beat.

Lastly, anyone who wants their picture from Q-Masters and played in the tournament, there is a high degree of chance that I took a good one of you. I think 14 out of 18 players ... I don't know, but e-mail if you desire one. It may take me a while to get at it, as I lead a bizarre life between the poolroom and the desk.

And 9-ball Girl could've straightened the whole thing out in Queens, where I was acting like a wildlife photographer. I'm always very edgy in NYC, and incognito is the preferred modus operandi for picking the best spot on the wall to dive into the ointment from.

A human fly,
Paul Berg
staff writer, Inside POOL Magazine
Gonzo journalist at large <hr /></blockquote>

just telling it like it is /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Sally
12-06-2003, 07:31 PM
Well, because Paul impressed me with the eloquence of his recent post, I felt a need to address this one, although for all this time, I ignored it because I felt it was too ridiculous to acknowledge.

Ken, you may feel that I sugar-coated my description of the article, but the mention of "illegal" gambling was so insignificant in the scope of Paul's sidebar that I couldn't realistically think that's what all the squawking was about. I resent you labeling me as "dishonest" when you have no idea what sort of person I am, although I have always invited any posters to approach me with any issues that they might have. If you went to the International Tournament of Champions last month, that would have been a great time for you to come up and discuss this with me.

Gambling happens in pool. That's just the way it goes. And if you think that "betting the house" (which is a direct quote from Paul's article) is done behind closed doors, you are sadly mistaken.

We don't print amounts out of respect for the players involved, but it would be "dishonest" of us to ignore the fact that this goes on. Paul wrote a great article that summed up quite well what was happening as far as the action went. It was a piece that added dimension to the article on the actual tournament, and I think that most everyone enjoyed it. I'm sorry if you didn't enjoy it, thought it was unethical, or took umbrage to it in some other fashion, but since it's the truth and it didn't hurt anyone, I don't see the problem with it.

Gerry
12-07-2003, 07:15 AM
Quote:

What is missing?......The best players in the game still don't make enough money to support their love for the game w/o supplementing their incomes by gambling. There maybe ten players in the world that make a living better than the average plumber with the prize money they win a year and maybe only five of those ten do it year after year. The puzzling question is why is that so?....I think it is so because the pool industry doesn't support the best in the game. They don't love the game they love the money.

HEY!, I'm a plumber, not that it matters, but I may be able to make enough playing pool to buy some Draino at best:)

Personally I like seeing the gambling info. Look at the response here on the board from the mention of a possible gambling-no-no like saying who won what from whom?!. Also I don't think the cops, or IRS could do anything about second hand info. Maybe if they caught you swapping cash, but tell all the stories you want. Like I read elsewhere here, people outside the pool world love to hear about late nite gambling, and all that goes with it.....Gerry

Ken
12-07-2003, 07:37 AM
Gerry,

You and a few others just don't get it. Betting among players is legal. Gambling among railbirds and stakehorses is a misdemeanor and so difficult to prove that it would not warrant the attention of law enforcement. Is it so difficult to understand that IP went beyond those activities in their reporting?

If all they did was what you mentioned I would have no problem with it. However, IP reported on activities that are easy to prove and could result in serious prison time as well as the shutting down of the event. Those facts added virtually nothing of interest to the story while putting the entire operation in jeopardy.
KenCT

strawman
12-08-2003, 07:03 AM
Ken,

If that is the core of your protest, I find a little shortsightedness more dangerous than the "little added interest" I capped the piece off with.

You call these potential charges easy to prove, but also contend that the activity was not in the open. I submit that the former is true, and that is what is alarming about the falsehood of the latter. I was there, and many posters to this forum were there too. The odds might as well be carried by the ring girl, Heather. The US Open is in jeopardy in many ways, because of the activities of those involved. The dangerous "paparazzi" have gone to some extent to give chances to the principles.

Some attendance from the enthusiasts here probably predates the Conference Center in Chesapeake, but from what I saw there, it's pretty easy to find out the lines, who was betting, and how well the house did. Any plain clothes officer intending to enjoy our nation's championship would have to be blind and stupid to miss it. Without going any further than I consciously chose to already, I will say that this is not anywhere close to private activity. In my discussions with involved parties, I have used discretion, and will continue to do so. But this professionalism dreamt of will likely have to involve some changes for them, just as the players, promoters, and other concerned groups have begun to adjust.

The big open ended question, to me, is whether these activities would really appeal to more fans than this cleaned up stuff. The boys in the backroom have been taking care of themselves well, and Grady himself complained once in print of not being cut in by oddsmakers at one of his tournaments. (See McCumber's "Playing Off the Rail.") What is best for our players and promoters? I happen to like the guys who made the lines at the Open, and think they'll be just fine, but with the state Barry's in now, I think they should batten down a few hatches.

No disrespect intended here Ken, but again, remember the Janscos. All it takes for a civil institution to get tired of joking around is enough prodding, and the Malvo trials will leave the judicial system in the area in an agitated mood. As far as folks not being interested, I think it was the perfect piece of information to really put McCready's accomplishment in perspective, as well as closing an article on an "action" assignment with the common denominator shared by fans and players alike.

I meant that to be shorter. Sorry, it's a common problem for me. I'm always over word counts ... In closing, look at it this way: If a national sports reporter from outside our own billiards publishing community came to the Open, she could make a career out of going deep into that stuff without anyone knowing she was doing it. We would love to see the US Open in the New York Times, or perhaps reported on by the Associated Press, wouldn't we? As a magazine inextricably connected to the longterm health of the game, I feel we struck a balance well here.

Paul

Fat Ivory
12-08-2003, 03:55 PM
Quoting the mag in your protest you've spread the word to a couple of thousand more people. Now you need to draft a letter of protest to yourself.

AuntyDan
12-09-2003, 04:30 PM
Just a quick comment - I personally think the WPBA have the right model, not banning their members from gambling altogether, just banning them from doing it in the same town at the same time that a sanctioned tournament is being played. I would not be at all surprised to find they have a contract clause about not bringing the sport or the organization into disrepute that could be applied to this kind of situation either.

But of course the male pros have nothing as well organized as the WPBA right now.

As for reporting, IP have the right to report in it if it is done in a public setting that a journalist has access to. If the players involved don't like the publicity, they should be more circumspect. If readers of IP don't like the content then don't buy it.