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View Full Version : Draw vs bridge length vs level shaft.



JimS
11-02-2003, 12:14 PM
The recent post from Heide got me to thinking about bridge length again so since I've just recently gotten back into this thing of ours I began working on 8" bridge length.

Since ALL my table time is spent doing table length more or less straight in shots working on developing a straight, true & consistent stroke, part that practice routine has been for me to practice hitting with strong draw.

When I stroke with maximum draw and I use the short, 8", bridge then the cue is no where near level. In order to level out the cue I have to move my closed brige back to about 12" from the edge of the cb.

Whaddya think? Should I play maximum draw with a long bridge or a very unlevel cue? It's one or the other.

Thanks,

ras314
11-02-2003, 12:54 PM
"Should I play maximum draw with a long bridge or a very unlevel cue? It's one or the other."

Neither of the above. Get your bridge lower, probably have to rotate your bridge hand so the shaft rides lower on the finger. And use a good quality stroke.

I saw Nick Varner demonstrate this draw shot as part of a drill. Bridge was about 7" and the cue nearly level.

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%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NI1Z8%OJ5M0%Pa6Z7%WC7Z9%XH1Z8%e B4b5%_s0Z7
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Oh, and stay away from those damned heavy bar balls!

tateuts
11-02-2003, 09:26 PM
Jim,

The cue is not level anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it. Worst advice I've ever heard "keep the cue level". Just watch the pros play. For long power draw shots, most of them jack up the back of the cue a little bit, drop the tip way down, and take a long smooth stroke. A long bridge really helps the long draw shot. But a relaxed, smooth powerful stroke with good follow through really puts the cueball in reverse.

The instructors can throw eggs at me now! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Chris

Ps. And on those long straight in draw shots, my advice is to aim at a specific tiny point on the object ball, make sure you are stroking the cue ball in the very center of the vertical axis (no right or left), and make the smoothest power stroke you can with follow through.

bluewolf
11-02-2003, 10:05 PM
You think a lot. I try not to do too much of that, although I still have relapses in that department. I draw better if when standing before getting down on the shot, I see I need to draw it and how far back and get down and do it without thinking while over the shot. Not that I am great at the draw,and still need a lot of work to get it to come back where I want it, just that thinking too much screws me up when down on the shot.

Randy g in poolschool said 'thinking equals standing'. I never forgot that but even then a lot of analysis takes me out of the zone of good concentration. But, then not an expert, just that too much technical stuff is over my head anyway.

Laura

ras314
11-02-2003, 10:13 PM
"The cue is not level anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it. Worst advice I've ever heard "keep the cue level". Just watch the pros play. For long power draw shots, most of them jack up the back of the cue a little bit, drop the tip way down, and take a long smooth stroke. A long bridge really helps the long draw shot. But a relaxed, smooth powerful stroke with good follow through really puts the cueball in reverse.

The instructors can throw eggs at me now!"

The egg throwing instructor doesn't post here much now. LOL

Of course the cue won't be level. It doesn't have to be jacked up either. Unless you are deliberatly trying to get some masse effect.

Not sure I agree with the longer bridge since accuracy of cb hit will probably be lost. But for sure some very good players do that, especially when using a hard hit. The hard hit makes it even more difficult to deliver a good accurate stroke. Going to be pretty near impossible for us ball bangers to do with any consisenty. IMHO

Hope I didn't give anybody the impression I was an instructor, they get too many eggs. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Aboo
11-02-2003, 10:30 PM
A very very good pool player gave me this little bit of advice when I asked him "How should I bridge to shoot this shot?" His answer was simple.
"As comfortable as you can be and still hit THIS spot on the cue ball."

No ones bridging, stance, stroke, etc.. are the same. Just find a balanced stance, a comfortable bridge, and then hit a LOT of balls to develop confidence with it.

When I finally let all that crap go and just started shooting, my game improved a LOT. There comes a point where you think your way into missing/losing. Don't let it get that far!

JimS
11-02-2003, 10:37 PM
I hit quite a few balls today ending up potting 180 but all with full draw. By full draw I mean object ball on spot string, cb on head string and trying to draw back to the head rail.

I had to shoot pretty hard to get that much draw and there was a big sacrifice in accuracy. I must have hit 250 shots to pot 180. But...it was profitable practice..I hope/think.

I found that I had the best draw and accuracy with a short very tight closed bridge...8" max, using a hard stroke with tight grip. I learned to "flatten" my grip hand so that I could get as low as possible on the cb while not raising the butt of the cue any more than absolutely necessary. I was able to get my bridge hand flat enough to use a very short bridge and not raise the butt at all. I didn't think I could do that when I started this work today.

Usually I grip very lightly letting the cue slide through my hand while forward stroking. It's typical for me to have 6" of cue behind my back hand while aiming and after the stroke end up with 3" or 4" of cue showing behind my hand.

But I got better draw with a tight grip and a power stroke using lots of wrist "flip" at the end of the stroke and not allowing any slip. When I used draw and let the cue slip forward I was able to get better accuracy but only medium draw...2 to 4 diamonds, which would be more than adequate in probably 85% of playing situations..especially on a 7ft table (this was done on my 9ft Diamond) I was careful to hit dead center, no side english.

Accuracy and draw power increased as the day progressed and I saw marked improvement by the end of the day. I feel MUCH more confident in my ability to hit a long power draw shot.

Scott Lee
11-02-2003, 10:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ras314:</font><hr> And use a good quality stroke.<hr /></blockquote>

And THAT is the MOST important aspect...from the 'instructor's' point of view! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

ras314
11-02-2003, 11:44 PM
Ah Ha! An instructor speeks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The cat is out of the bag, was mostly trying to repeat what Scott tried to teach me. And works very well for me when I get it right.

Scott any advice on the tight grip, sight unseen? BTW congratulations and good luck to the lady.

I must add while books are useful there is no subsitute for a good instructor.

nhp
11-03-2003, 04:48 AM
To have a powerful draw, what I do is very simple. First, I stand about 15 feet from my shot, then I get a running start, and dive onto the table with my cue pointed ahead of me. Although my arms got scraped up, I drew the ball.

j/k- I've been having problems drawing accurately, so I don't know what to tell you

pooltchr
11-03-2003, 08:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tateuts:</font><hr> a relaxed, smooth powerful stroke with good follow through

The instructors can throw eggs at me now! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Chris

Ps. and make the smoothest power stroke you can with follow through.
<hr /></blockquote>

Sounds like pretty good advise to me. I'd have to give it ZERO eggs. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

JimS
11-03-2003, 09:07 AM
What do you folks think about the grip pressure when using draw? Is it common to "grip it and rip it" when using heavy draw? Is there a better technique.....given that the tip is on the cloth and the follow thru is there?

It bothers me to hold the cue in a death grip. I fear loss of accuracy because the hand/arm/shoulder can move a just a fraction so easily. Letting the cue slide through my non-grip as I perform the forward stroke seems much less likely to cause an accident in accuracy....but the power generated using such a technique is limited so it becomes necessary, it would appear, to "grip it and rip it". ???

Fred Agnir
11-03-2003, 09:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JimS:</font><hr> What do you folks think about the grip pressure when using draw? Is it common to "grip it and rip it" when using heavy draw? Is there a better technique.....given that the tip is on the cloth and the follow thru is there? <hr /></blockquote> I keep it loose. For me, the looser the better. IMO, one method isn't necessarily better than another. For me, I think I can get higher speed with less body motion in a shorter stroke length with the loose accelerating wrist. In other words, I think it's easier for me to get the speed I'm looking for with a loose wrist and loose grip. To get the same speed with a tighter grip and tighter wrist, the arm would have to make up that speed. I can't control that.

Now, a tight grip and loose wrist is very difficult for me. Kudos to anyone who can execute it. Is it truly a "loose wrist" if it's a "tight grip"?

Fred

MarkUrsel
11-03-2003, 09:50 AM
What works for me is a reasonably flat cue. The key is to not pop up even though you're hitting it firmly. I find as soon as I start popping up to see what happens, I miss it and the draw doesn't happen. If I stay down, shooting the length of the table and drawing it back all the way does happen.

Stretch
11-03-2003, 10:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MarkUrsel:</font><hr> What works for me is a reasonably flat cue. The key is to not pop up even though you're hitting it firmly. I find as soon as I start popping up to see what happens, I miss it and the draw doesn't happen. If I stay down, shooting the length of the table and drawing it back all the way does happen. <hr /></blockquote>


Good observation Mark. The tendancy for any shot hit hard is to lift the head. Just as in golf, you lift your head and chances are real good you'll scull the ball.

To help stay down on power draws i look at the cue ball last. Secondly, i lower my bridge hand and keep it extra solid. Thirdly i lengthin the bridge slightly to facilitate more accelleration. Forthly i use a loose relaxed backhand grip that whipps through the cue ball. Fifthly i judge the distance and mentaly add a few feet to the shot......it helps the follow through. Sixthly.....rev up for it. It's a dynamic shot. You need your mojo pumping /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St ( one more? chalk up! )

ras314
11-03-2003, 12:59 PM
Only way I can use a tight grip and a hard stroke with follow thru is to bend the wrist down at the end. Then I'm as apt to put the cb several tables down range as get that kind of power draw. Have tried to use a hit down on the cb, puts a on lot of spin and may be off the cloth way down the table. Lucky to even hit the ob.

I've got a long way to go. Works better for me to use a loose grip and try to get a good quality stroke, letting the butt come up in the hand at the end. Just doesn't seem to need a lot of power, feels more like using speed rather than putting weight into the stroke. Might add that good fast felt makes a lot of difference.

Rod
11-03-2003, 01:32 PM
Hi Jim,

I'm trying to figure out why the cue would be more level or raised with a long or short bridge. At any rate, when people try to stroke very firm with a short bridge their tendacy is to grip tight. They think they need this to get the cue accelerated. It might take a tad firmer grip depending but 8" bridge is not real short.

JMO but wouldn't your time be better served learning the timing and feel at a closer distance? I don't think hitting long hard power draw shots will help your overall game very much. I've been wrong before but those shots don't come up real often, or if they do there might be a better play than a super stroke shot. LOL

Rod

Scott Lee
11-03-2003, 05:17 PM
ras 314...I have other students with the same problem. One called me today, wanting a lesson Saturday morning, to address that issue. I'll be in Phoenix on Sunday &amp; Monday, if you want to get together! To eliminate the 'death grip' complex, one needs to think about the 'throwing motion' inherent in a pendulum swing stroke. You can't let the weight of the cue work for you, if you're holding it tightly! I have a new, remote activated, "electric shock collar" that I believe will 'cure' you with just a couple shocks! LOL j/k

Scott

pooltchr
11-04-2003, 06:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> I have a new, remote activated, "electric shock collar" that I believe will 'cure' you with just a couple shocks! LOL j/k

Scott <hr /></blockquote>
Hey Scott,
Great idea! Can we mass produce them? I know a lot of instructors, and a whole lot of husbands (j/k) who could put this product to good use!

Fred Agnir
11-04-2003, 07:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> I have a new, remote activated, "electric shock collar" that I believe will 'cure' you with just a couple shocks! LOL j/k

Scott <hr /></blockquote>I cheaper alternative would be to tape a thumbtack to your palm, with the point sticking towards the palm. Any "death grip" will result in immediate feedback.

Fred &lt;~~~ serious, sort of

JimS
11-04-2003, 07:38 AM
WOW!!!!! Youse guys are stern taskmasters. Sure am glad Coach Cass wasn't useing your methods /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

nhp
11-04-2003, 07:55 AM
Scott since you need to use the weight of the cue, does this mean that using a lighter cue, say, 18oz would put you at a disadvantage for a power draw? When I am "on" I can draw the cueball pretty effortlessly across the table. I wish I knew exactly what I was doing the last time I was in stroke. Right now it's kind of like a guessing game trying to get that feel.

pooltchr
11-04-2003, 08:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Scott since you need to use the weight of the cue, does this mean that using a lighter cue, say, 18oz would put you at a disadvantage for a power draw? When I am "on" I can draw the cueball pretty effortlessly across the table. I wish I knew exactly what I was doing the last time I was in stroke. Right now it's kind of like a guessing game trying to get that feel. <hr /></blockquote>
One method I have found that seems to work for a lot of students is to pick the point on the table beyond the cue ball where you want the tip of the cue to be when you finish the shot. Line up the shot so you will pass through the cue ball a tip or so below center depending on how much draw you need. When you are ready to pull the trigger, shift your focus to that point on the table and put the tip of the cue right there. The result will be you complete the shot, get the desired backspin on the cue ball, and you finished the shot (read "follow through")

Fred Agnir
11-04-2003, 08:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nhp:</font><hr> Scott since you need to use the weight of the cue, does this mean that using a lighter cue, say, 18oz would put you at a disadvantage for a power draw? <hr /></blockquote>
I'm not Scott, but... I think what Scott means is that you don't need to add the weight of your arm to the stroke by gripping tighter.

Using the "weight of the stick" is comparable to the idea of "what weight is best for breaking?" question. Especially when you're talking about power draw. You can stroke a lighter stick faster, but a heavier stick is... heavier. I think the energy is the same for all intents and purposes, so it becomes a matter of personal preference.

That's the long answer. The short answer is, no. A lighter stick should be of any disadvantage when shooting a power draw.

Fred &lt;~~~ IMO, of course

ras314
11-04-2003, 08:10 AM
"cheaper alternative would be to tape a thumbtack to your palm, with the point sticking towards the palm. Any "death grip" will result in immediate feedback."

Might not make you as likley to "pop up" on the shot either. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

JimS
11-04-2003, 10:22 PM
Well shoot Rod...poke a hole in my freakin balloon /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

You would have to point out that maybe I should practice shots that will acutually be used in a match!

Thanks Rod. I'm gunna take your suggestion to heart and not spend too awfully much time on power draws and more time on jumps! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ...or something.