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View Full Version : Real Story "Spotting someone the break"



Diana Minor
11-02-2003, 07:56 PM
I ran a post called spotting someone the break.
My question was: If you spotted your opponent the break and they fouled on their attempt to break. Do they retain the break or does the break pass to you?

Myself and a friend went to a tournament in Poplar Bluff, MO. ( OWNER JIM LEE ). After the tournament we matched my friend up with a girl that was bartending. With as the backer for the next day.

We came back the next day and commenced to play 2 sets race to 7 at $500.00 per set. The money was froze up $1000.00 each, $2000.00 total and put under the pool table.
The bartender was getting a large spot and the break.
My friend won the first set.
During this set the bartender had fouled on the break but my friend wasn't paying attention to the table. I saw it happen but didn't say anything for I felt it was the players responsibility to watch their own game.
Not the backers.

The second set started out with the bartender ahead 3 to 2 when she fouled on the break again.
This time my friend saw it and called a foul.
The cue ball did not even hit the rack and the bartender grabbed the cue ball on it's return back up the table.

At this point my friend started to break the balls when Mr. Lee approached the table and argued that the bartender should still get to rebreak the balls.

Several arguments ensued and neither side agreed.
We were still discussing it when Mr.Lee PICKED UP THE MONEY and counted out his original $1000.00 and gave us our original $1000.00. Keeping the $500.00 from the first set that we had already won. He stance was that they were ahead 3 to 2 in the second set so they win that set and makes us even.

I knew the arguing was way out of control and being 2 girls I felt it was best to leave immediatly.

I've heard alot about players getting robbed all over the country but I think its getting bad when the owner of an establishment and rumored backer in many games STEALS THE MONEY FROM 2 GIRLS. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Vagabond
11-02-2003, 08:07 PM
Howdy Diana,
Please do not forget that your opponent gets to break( as per your contract).Cheers
Vagabond

Nostroke
11-02-2003, 08:50 PM
I dont know if there is an established qambling protocol on this but im with you Diana. Logic tells me the player is being given the breaks or the "opening shot" and if he fouls on that shot-It's a foul period. What if the player was down 8-0 in a race to nine and just kept missing the rack on purpose til the joint closed?

ras314
11-02-2003, 08:52 PM
If any ball is moving after the cb is hit, even just spinning, it is a foul when the cb is touched. Doesn't matter if on the break, with the hand, cue tip, or anything else. It is then the other players shot, possibly with BIH anywhere.

It is also generaly a foul when 4 balls are not driven to the rail, most rules and the most ignored. Doesn't matter if a miscue. Usually your choice whether to break or let your opponent break whether you are spotting the break or not.

Diana, you are lucky to get out of that place with your original stake. Count it off as having learned not to gamble such poor losers.

Or at least make sure only one break attempt is spotted per rack. For that much money it's worth while getting specific with anything associated with any type of spot.

Vagabond, how many times do you have to spot the break in one rack? Till the 9 ball goes?

Sorry, most irritating thread I've read.

tateuts
11-02-2003, 09:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr> Howdy Diana,
Please do not forget that your opponent gets to break( as per your contract).Cheers
Vagabond <hr /></blockquote>

Do you realize the player had the break and fouled? What do you think happens on a break foul?

Chris

tateuts
11-02-2003, 09:30 PM
Were you playing 8 ball or 9 ball?


I think you were ripped off. I think he realized it was a bad game and wanted out.

Chris

ras314
11-02-2003, 09:36 PM
This grabbing the stakes and stealing money already lost fair and square is part of what gives the game a bad odor. Not the gambling as so many people seen to think.

Hell, church bingo is gambling. So is putting up money in a tourament and hopeing to win a big return.

Damn, I'm still pi---d off.

tateuts
11-03-2003, 12:03 AM
Diana,

The other issue is, do you have experience playing/backing high stakes bar room pool? I played bar pool in college for money, and it was UGLY. I didn't even drink and I hated it but I needed the money. This kind of stuff went on all the time. It's the pits. This, for example, was probably a hustle. Who plays for $500 and misses the whole rack? They probably wanted out and this was their little gimmick.

Never trust the houseman in a strange place.

Chris

nhp
11-03-2003, 04:42 AM
That's funny Chris, I was thinking the exact same thing.

Fred Agnir
11-03-2003, 08:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr> Howdy Diana,
Please do not forget that your opponent gets to break( as per your contract).Cheers
Vagabond <hr /></blockquote> And I will again remind everyone that per the rules of 9-ball, the miscue on the break was the break. The second shot is not a break shot. Therefore, the spotter has every right, per the contract to shoot the second shot. Even if she chooses to bust the balls wide open.

Additonally, there is no push shot after she busts them wide open, as this shot no longer is the break shot.

Fred

JimS
11-03-2003, 08:38 AM
This sure sounds like a point to make clear BEFORE the match starts.....one point among a BUNCH of others if you're going to cover all bases and possibilities.

Steve Lipsky
11-03-2003, 09:04 AM
Yet another in a long line of reasons to never gamble with (unvouched for) strangers. This is something you could never have seen coming, and yet it cost you at least $500.

There is no way to protect yourself from people like this. Even if you go over every possible violation before the match, what would happen if she just blatantly fouled and refused to call it on herself? What would you do then? You are two women in a strange bar. What would you do then?

I do not mean to be rude, but you are playing for a lot of money with people you don't know in unfamiliar surroundings. While I agree that you got shafted, I don't think it's all that uncommon. Be happy you weren't robbed of your original stake, and hopefully you learned a lesson.

- Steve

Ross
11-03-2003, 01:10 PM
Another good rule of thumb is to not argue over rules if you think you have a good match up. MANY opponents, when they think they are into a match they probably won't win, will deliberately make a bad call hoping to get into an argument so they can justify getting mad and quitting.

Tommy_Davidson
11-04-2003, 01:57 AM
&gt; Diana,I am not going to debate over whether this happened,as I have no reason to doubt you. However,this must have been an isolated incident,as Jim and his wife Amanda have always treated myself and whoever was in my group VERY well. I feel he either honestly felt he was in the right,or had some liquid assistance in pulling a stunt
like what you described. I have heard a lot of first hand accounts of him putting his money on the light backing various players,and never having any problems. However,an incident like this is worth documenting to the world. Tommy D.

8BallChump
11-04-2003, 06:41 AM
Tommy D....

As someone who actually WITNESSED this I can assure you that it happened. What Dee doesn't say is that he has had TWO ADDITIONAL opportunities to make this thing right and he has chosen to not do that. He just REFUSES to do the right thing. If he has done as much "gambling" as people say that he has, then he cannot HONESTLY believe that she can retain the break. What does she get to do - - break until she likes the outcome?? If he has been around that long then he knows what should happen and he is just choosing to use THAT as an excuse to quit and to not pay. And make NO mistake about it.... JIM did QUIT. He said that he was DONE and then HE kneeled down and took the money from under the table (at least he gave the orig stake back). These girls had already let 3 flagrant fouls pass without saying anything, but this was too much. The only games Amanda had won (except 1) were on the break and to give that foul up to her would have possibly meant multiple games. After all, she was GETTING THE FIVE, SEVEN AND THE BREAK, so she had THREE money balls floating every break.

After Jim ATTACKED them about this break, the girls even offered up an option to Amanda (who would have taken it, except for Jim's behavior)..... they offered to let Amanda go ahead and have the break BUT her WILD balls would not count on THAT break. I thought that this was a pretty good solution, however, JIM just ignored them.

The facts are that JIM did QUIT and then proceed to TUSH_HOG two WOMEN, who have each been in the pool world, yes... playing tournaments and gambling....for over 25 years and have never, to my knowledge, had a bad word said about them - but I guess that a guy like that just gets his jollies off of intimidating women.

Just to let you know more about the story.....

Sid_Vicious
11-04-2003, 08:23 AM
"they offered to let Amanda go ahead and have the break BUT her WILD balls would not count on THAT break. I thought that this was a pretty good solution, however, JIM just ignored them."

Does sound one sided...sid

TxArmyWife
11-04-2003, 05:51 PM
dommit dee, when you are backing a player, hear what's going on... make the rules very simple and heard by everyone. you gave the break, was it understood by all what the rules are? (in breaking) I don't care if you're playing in a bar or the Vatican, the rules must be heard. The contract needs a handshake only then can you squabble over mundane bull. As a backer, I would have done the same thing on technicality as Mr. Lee, that was very smart. know why? cus i can....you were smart to get out, sometimes not getting hurt is worth it. we are a new sport, not everyone is nice. Stop backing and start playing, i'll back you! And, i guarantee, we will all hear me call the rules. Or.... we won't get out our toys and play....

And, I won't classify you as a PRO, just a dang good player, lol.

Steve - Detroit
11-04-2003, 08:20 PM
OK, what am I missing here? I've followed this thread and the others on the subject and thought Fred's responses made the most sense by far, she made her break shot and fouled, the break was done. I have a hard time imagining a $500 set with someone expecting "do overs". I thought "do overs" were left on the playground years ago. Can someone help out this rookie?

pooldaddy9
11-04-2003, 09:30 PM
If you are spotting them the break and they miss the rack, regardless of the reason...Let them try to break again. Remember you are spotting them the break and that is not done until the balls move.

Steve Lipsky
11-04-2003, 10:57 PM
Seems to me this could have been avoided if the balls never counted on the break. I know, I know... different regions, different rules, but I gotta say it's nice to play in a place where a guy's gotta earn a win from his spot ball.

Spot balls counting on the break - it turns the game into a coin flip, and 9-ball was almost there to begin with.

- Steve

jjinfla
11-05-2003, 06:02 AM
Were you playing first one to win two sets gets the money?
Or were you playing only two sets and you can win only if you won both sets?

Next time play by the set.

Was she a low level player who plays in the APA? If so the rules in the APA state that the break does not count unless it is a legal break. And she may thought you were playing that way.

Everywhere else the break starts when the tip touches the cue ball, or when the CB crosses the string line, and if the person misses the rack it is a foul. But how many times have you seen a miscue on the break and the breaker just shoots again? And I think I remember reading in Ewa's book that if you miscue on the break you should stop the cueball from hitting the rack because then it would not be a break and you can break again.

Who was the person giving the 5,7,9?

Jake

8BallChump
11-05-2003, 06:17 AM
Pool Daddy.... in WHAT other sport/game do you get to keep swinging till you hit it??? I just want you to go to ANY tournament and try that. That were playing Tournament Rules (the Midwest 9Ball Tour). Those rules are once the ball crosses the line, it is an attempt. If you foul, it goes to the other player, PERIOD.

Diana Minor
11-05-2003, 07:50 AM
Don't mean to be sarcastic but does that mean that if you miscue on the 9 and don't hit it then you just say oops!
I didn't mean to foul so I'll just shoot again.

We may be girls but we are playing $500 sets.
We all just played a tournament the day before where texas express rules were used and we agreed to play by the tournament rules.

Scott Lee
11-05-2003, 08:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 8BallChump:</font><hr> Pool Daddy.... in WHAT other sport/game do you get to keep swinging till you hit it??? I just want you to go to ANY tournament and try that. That were playing Tournament Rules (the Midwest 9Ball Tour). Those rules are once the ball crosses the line, it is an attempt. If you foul, it goes to the other player, PERIOD.
<hr /></blockquote>

Oh PLEASE! This was NOT a tournament. They were GAMBLING...where all's fair, unless otherwise agreed to UP FRONT. The spot was that someone GOT the break (along with the 5 &amp; 7). That means, to me, that the person offering the break, NEVER gets to break, regardless. Quit whinin', and set the dimensions of the GAMBLING match out, clearly, before you start! You can't come back and bitch about it afterwards, when you're obviously both at fault. Be happy you broke even...and LEARN from it. Sure doesn't sound like these two women have been gambling for 25 years.

Scott Lee ~ thinks this is a crazy thread

pooltchr
11-05-2003, 11:35 AM
Scott,
I have finally put two and two together and figured it out. You travel all over the country giving free lessons just so you can see your name on the CCB and maybe sell a couple of those electric shock collars! Great business plan! Wish I had thought of it!
LMAO
sj

stevelomako
11-05-2003, 12:05 PM
Scott Scott Scott,
SEE, I was Right! You read and don't comprehend anything!

Dee posted an HOUR before you and said they agreed to play tournament rules like in the tournament they were all just in.

they were playing:
TOURNAMENT RULES!

TOURNAMENT RULES!

TOURNAMENT RULES!

You got it now?????????????????????

I myself, originally said if I was giving up the break then....I NEVER BREAK (gambling).

But then she replied that they were playing TOURNAMENT RULES! (you got it yet???)

So then I changed my answer accordingly..............BECAUSE I READ WHAT WAS POSTED!!!

Steve Lomako~~thinks Scott Lees' 2 cents aint worth a nickel anymore (did I put any words in your mouth this time?) you even put a quote in your post that said they were playing TOURNAMENT RULES!!

tateuts
11-05-2003, 12:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Seems to me this could have been avoided if the balls never counted on the break. I know, I know... different regions, different rules, but I gotta say it's nice to play in a place where a guy's gotta earn a win from his spot ball.

Spot balls counting on the break - it turns the game into a coin flip, and 9-ball was almost there to begin with.

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve,

Sounds to me like the game never would have happened. Sounds like they have some kind of wierd break figured out to pocket the wild balls. I mean she missed the rack three times? What the hell was she doing?

A hustler I know played Fong Pang Chao in a game of six ball. I said "are you nuts, that guy's the world champion, what happened". He said "I beat him - I know how to make the six ball on the break on these tables".

Chris

Tommy_Davidson
11-06-2003, 02:44 AM
&gt; Now that I have heard more about it,that is just about the damndest thing I have ever heard,just plain pitiful. Tommy D.

Qtec
11-06-2003, 03:07 AM
[ QUOTE ]
These girls had already let 3 flagrant fouls pass without saying anything, <hr /></blockquote>

Why.????

You either call fouls or you dont.

Qtec

Nostroke
11-06-2003, 07:21 AM
Its ridiculous to think that you can agree on every possible nuance upfront. I have seen a hundred matches where someone got the breaks and never once heard this area discussed. They were all idiots i suppose.
I guess its acceptable to tell your opponent he "didn't call it" when he shoots his hanging moneyball also if it wasn't discussed. Honorable people do honorable things. Scumbags are scumbags.

Steve Lipsky
11-06-2003, 08:36 AM
Hey Qtec. As another poster alluded to before, when you've got yourself a great game, you give up the useless fouls. If you are way out in front and your opponent fouls (but doesn't call it on himself), you'd be crazy to get into a potential session-ending argument over this.

I once saw a guy robbing someone, and the victim was complaining about the table. He was saying how the rails weren't good, the speed wasn't good, etc. He asked to change tables, the better player refused, and that was their last set. The better player came up to me afterwards and said, "Can you believe the nerve of that guy?? Wanting to switch tables in the middle of a set??" I told this guy if his victim asked him to paint his house in the middle of the set, he should've agreed.

When you're stealing, as they say, you take it for as much as you can. And part of that is not doing anything that could potentially ruin it, such as arguing over a foul.

- Steve

Steve Lipsky
11-06-2003, 09:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nostroke:</font><hr> Its ridiculous to think that you can agree on every possible nuance upfront. I have seen a hundred matches where someone got the breaks and never once heard this area discussed. ... Honorable people do honorable things. Scumbags are scumbags. <hr /></blockquote>

Nostroke, I could not agree more. I have never heard this being discussed prior to the match, and in fact posed the question to some regulars at my poolroom. Not one of them gave me a conclusive answer, and all said it was an interesting situation because they're not sure what they'd do.

Scott, I think I have to disagree with you on this one. As Nostroke said, honorable people do honorable things. While I think it was a horrendous idea for these two women to go bar hustling in a strange place, they got shafted, and they got shafted because their opponents had no class.

- Steve

Scott Lee
11-06-2003, 10:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Nostroke:</font><hr>Honorable people do honorable things. Scumbags are scumbags. <hr /></blockquote>

Nostroke...Point taken! I'd have to agree with you. Sadly, it seems like, especially when high stakes gambling is involved, there are statistically more scumbags than honorable folks. However, since I don't know any of the parties involved, personally, I should have just stayed out of it! LOL

Qtec
11-06-2003, 11:27 AM
I agree. My point is this-if you are going to call fouls, do it right from the beggining, so there are no misunderstandings.

Its a bit late to start calling fouls at the end of the second set.

Qtec