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Thread: King George, FISA & the 4th Amendment

  1. #21
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    Re: King George, FISA & the 4th Amendment

    IMO, you're theorizing too much.

    You don't catch terrorists by announcing your strategies to them. You have to catch them off-guard. Isn't it obvious that it also means keeping the American public in the dark sometimes as well?

    Of course it's risky to put blind trust in your government. Everyone knows that, including me. But if you keep forcing the Government to lay it's cards on the table every time it wants to make a move, we will never catch these guys.

    During WWII we sacrificed, too. We gave up certain rations, certain materials, we bought war bonds. This is a different type of sacrifice, and IMO, the most important one if we want to get these guys.

    You say we have enough tools. How do you know that? Are you saying we should do less than we can because you're worried that someone might read your e-mails? How ridiculous is that? What is the government going to do with your private e-mails? Do you think they'll do something they shouldn't do to you? What's the big problem here?

    I think it's more of the idea of it that bothers you, rather than the practical application. You don't know what they may be doing and you find that unacceptable. I don't find it unacceptable. I find it necessary.

    Fran


  2. #22
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    Re: King George, FISA & the 4th Amendment

    No one has revealed the methods the administration is using. Do you really believe the terrorists, or anyone else, for that matter, didn't think that surveillance goes on, and that communications are spied upon?


    Applying for in advance, or, in case of emergency, reporting, after the fact, surveilance activities, is a far cry from forcing the administration to lay it's cards on the table. This is why attorneys all over the country are wondering why Bush is breaking the law. There is no reasonable explanation, since our laws provide for him to spy, he just has to meet the standards in place, which were put in place to prevent him from abusing the power, that's all. What do you have against that?

    If by sacrificing, you mean that you think that we should all trust George Bush, or the Government, to spy on us, whenever they like, and with no accountability, I say the sacrifice you call for is not only un-necessary, but extremely dangerous, and a threat to our freedom, privacy, and Constitutional rights. As I said, all Americans do not trust George Bush, over half of us don't.

    I'm sure we could always find more tools to use, Fran, there could never be enough, IMO, that isn't the issue, the president has access to use all those tools which we have. As I stated, no one is asking that he cease surveillance activities, I don't know how many more times I have to say that, just that he do so according to our laws and safegaurds, which are already in place, and are there to prevent abuse of power, and the chance of arbitrarily spying on Americans, thereby infringing on a right we have gaurenteed to us in our Constitution. Why do you have a problem with that?

    There is in my mind no connection between Goerge Bush's desire for a blank check to spy, under the cloak of secrecy, when and on whomever he pleases, without any accountability to anyone for why and how he does it. It is, IMO, ridiculous and naive to think that such unchecked powers wouldn't be abused.

    It is, IMO. completely un-necessary, uncalled for, and dangerous to us all, to relinquish to George Bush, or any other president, a blank check to spy on Americans. We all fear further devastation from terrorists, but we can't let fear cancel our judgement, or supercede our constitutional rights. What freedoms would we be fighting for in any war if we did that?

    The question is not what any one of us is hiding, but rather, what is George Bush hiding, that he would operate illegally, beyond the safe gaurds of our laws? This issue has nothing to do with keeping his actions secret from terrorists. They don't know anymore today, than they knew yesterday, and wouldn't know any more tomorrow, nor would we be any less safe, if George Bush had obeyed the law.

    Suffice it to say, our representatives, in Congress, and in the Senate, both Republicans and Democrats, are alarmed over his actions, as are many many other Americans. We are either not as afraid, or not as trusting of Big Brother, as you seem to be.

    Gayle in Md.

  3. #23
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    Re: King George, FISA & the 4th Amendment

    "no one is asking that he cease surveillance activities, I don't know how many more times I have to say that, just that he do so according to our laws no one is asking that he cease surveillance activities, I don't know how many more times I have to say that, just that he do so according to our laws "

    Selective hearing Gayle. You said it clear enough for a chimp to understand...oops, not one in WS as it turns out...sid
    "If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room!"

  4. #24
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    Re: King George, FISA & the 4th Amendment

    Take your pick. Give the terrorists the benefit of the doubt, or give our government the benefit of the doubt. If you think you can have it both ways, you're dead wrong.

    To quote sid, even a chimp can understand that.

    I'm done here.



  5. #25
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    Re: The NSA

    Jon....."surely, you can't be serious"
    Just think back to the FBI wire tapping MLK,and other civil rights leaders, others who spoke up against the admin... and various non-violent citizen groups....and who can say that this info was not used against them?
    The HUAC used obscure tidbits of info in their Red Menace inquisition hearings....to ruin many lives of respectable Americans
    And then consider that there was a plan in place to kill Jack Anderson, for daring to write the truth....it's not that far a strech to imagine something similiar today.



  6. #26
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    Re: The NSA

    Gayle, I think that if we could trust a President with Alzheimer's, to take the "box" to bed with him at night, surely we can trust these fine folks to listen in on our
    conservations?

  7. #27
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    Re: The NSA

    LOL, sure, God would never let the King do anything underhanded, lol. [img]/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

    Gayle in Md.

  8. #28
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    Re: King George, FISA & the 4th Amendment

    Fran,
    Fortunatly, that's a choice we don't have to make. I'm surprised at you, the way you have spoken out against Hoover's shenanigans.

    I don't trust either the Government or the terrorists, or anyone else, when it comes to unlimited power, Fran. I don't need it both ways.

    I'll overlook the chimp remark...it's tough being in NY with no transportation, especially Christmas week, [img]/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] lol.

    Gayle in Md...

  9. #29
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    Re: King George, FISA & the 4th Amendment

    <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> ... Tricky Dick Cheney, ...
    <hr /></blockquote>

    I object to your blantant theft of the epitath "Tricky Dick", there can only be one true "Tricky Dick" in the hearts of all red-blooded Americans.
    ************************************
    Better to wear out than to rust out.

  10. #30
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    Re: King George, FISA & the 4th Amendment

    I believe it was the Attorney General during the Clinton administration who said that the President has the legal right to authorize wiretaps and survelience for the security of the country without being required to get permission from the courts first.
    Steve
    PBIA Professional Advanced Level Billiard Instructor

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