View Poll Results: Is there a God, or Creator if you prefer?

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  • Absolutely, I have no doubt.

    3 42.86%
  • I believe, but accept I may be wrong.

    1 14.29%
  • I am unsure.

    0 0%
  • I disbelieve, but accept I may be wrong.

    2 28.57%
  • Absolutely not, I have no doubt

    1 14.29%
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Thread: Is there a God?

  1. #31
    It cannot be separate from a God's existence if you believe you have free will.

    Let's look at our options:

    - A determinist universe with a god. Although I disagree with it, the hypothesis makes some sense. A creator could mke a universe, wind it up like watch, and let it wind down. In this scenario no free will exists, nor does morality, nor does the universe have any purpose.

    The problem is that free will is so blindingly apparent, moreso even than "I think, therefore I am!"

    - A determinist universe without a god. Essentially the same problem, except worse, for free will. In such an existence free will could not be granted even on a temporary basis.

    - A universe with a god. The only hypothesis which allows for libertarin free will. Quantum mechanics, as well as theology and philosophy, point to this being the case.

    QM demonstrates that "REALITY" exists only once the probability wave has been observed by a conscious obserserver, causing the wave to collapse. With this being the case, a Creator becomes a neccessity as the big bang probability wave could not have collapsed without an outside agent making an observation.
    Last edited by LWW; 12-26-2012 at 12:16 PM.

  2. #32
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    Most of what you argue is subjective, and not necessarily true. It depends upon what place one makes for consciousness within a materialist reductivist world view. If as only an epiphenomenal event attendant to the real deal-- the electrical and magnetic operations of neuronal networks-- then consciousness is mainly an illusion and free will, a mistake of language relating to that illusion. Or, one may take consciousness as an emergent phenomenon from material interactions, and then it might not be subject to material determinations at all or in chief. The observing necessity for collapsing the probability wave is merely one interpretation of QM phenomena (the Copenhagen interpretation iirc), and hardly without controversy, and it applies of course at quantum level dimensions, not at the universe-as-we-know-it dimensions. But weren't the original dimensions of the Big Bang at quantum level dimensions? Not exactly. They were at SINGULARITY dimensions (at first), so at least as I understand it, there is no quantum probability wave for the Big Bang's pre-/post-existence collapse to result from.
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  3. #33
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    QM iz mostly rubbish. The bigbang iz rubbish. Cahill and aether theory tell us that. Uncertainty iz certainly rubbish. The things making matter are billions smaller, and in turn mightbe made by mini-things billions smaller again, which mightbe etc etc.

    One kood insist that God makes consciousness, and that God makes free will by suspending determinizm and causality for some things for some times. This would make at least a little bit of sense kompared to God setting things up and letting it all go on autopilot.

    But what of the unlikely universe???
    mac.

    And, einstein iz rubbish, probability waves iz rubbish, the constant G aint constant, etc etc.
    Its funny aktually, science iz nowadays az much a dogma az religion and krappynomix and psychology and dietology.
    Science advances one funeral at a time (planck??).
    Last edited by cushioncrawler; 12-26-2012 at 03:40 PM.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Soflasnapper View Post
    Most of what you argue is subjective, and not necessarily true. It depends upon what place one makes for consciousness within a materialist reductivist world view. If as only an epiphenomenal event attendant to the real deal-- the electrical and magnetic operations of neuronal networks-- then consciousness is mainly an illusion and free will, a mistake of language relating to that illusion. Or, one may take consciousness as an emergent phenomenon from material interactions, and then it might not be subject to material determinations at all or in chief. The observing necessity for collapsing the probability wave is merely one interpretation of QM phenomena (the Copenhagen interpretation iirc), and hardly without controversy, and it applies of course at quantum level dimensions, not at the universe-as-we-know-it dimensions. But weren't the original dimensions of the Big Bang at quantum level dimensions? Not exactly. They were at SINGULARITY dimensions (at first), so at least as I understand it, there is no quantum probability wave for the Big Bang's pre-/post-existence collapse to result from.
    There is no room for consciousness in a godless determinist universe ... and every leading physicist who professes atheisms in agreement with this.

    The reason is simple ... if I fire a single photon into a mirrored box, it will bounce for eternity. Knowing all of the variables, and with sufficient computing power, every bounce ... and every angle of every bounce ... can accurately be predicted.

    Taken to the next level ... from the moment of the big bang, the die was cast for the future movement of every particle which sprang into existence. That includes the particles which makeup the chemicals of the brain. Hence, free will and consciousness do not exist.

    What is or isn't an emerging trait has no relevance as it ... in a godless determinist universe ... cannot have a random element to it.

    If one accepts liertarian free will then one accepts the mysticism that allows for it.

  5. #35
    Mac, aether may be the mysterious dark matter ... but it doesn't change the topic.

  6. #36
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    Subatomic and atomic theory must affekt any discussion re FREE WILL etc (the topic here) az well az THE UNLIKELY UNIVERSE etc.
    And shood affekt any discussion re God too, but uzually dont.

    Aether theory obviates dark matter, dark energy, dark fluid and dark flow. And of course eliminates einsteins SR and GR, and other silly notions. Alltho there are lots of different aether theorys too.

    Aether etc theorys dont (yet) answer any questions re cause and effekt and determinizm (ie free will), but uzing modern junk science like QM and SR and GR etc iz wasting time bigtime. And aether theory probly helps (today) to answer questions re the unlikely universe. And aether theory will certainly help answer all such questions and more "tomorrow".
    mac.
    Last edited by cushioncrawler; 12-26-2012 at 04:55 PM.

  7. #37
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    God. God uzes some unknown (to us) force and energy and matter and time or something to make us and our universe out of known (kinda sort of) force and energy and matter and time or something, and to keep watch on us, and to know everything on us, and to remember everything on us, and in some instances to change somethings on us (miracles etc). But that whole sort of rationalization and thinking iz silly human thinking, and duznt kum into play in heaven.

    God. God haz allways been and will allways be. But time and being etc are silly human notions, and dont kum into play in heaven.

    God. There iz only one God. There aint two. And there aint an infinite number of Gods. But that whole sort of notion of a God iz silly human thinking, and duznt kum into play in heaven, God iz everywhere and in everything in everyway. Hell God woz in every little bullet that went straight throo every little skoolkid.

    God. God came from nowhere, in no time. But the notion of where and time iz silly human thinking, and duznt kum into play in heaven.

    God. The existance of God thusly explains simply and direktly anything and everything u like. Mystery solved. Next question pleez.
    mac.
    Last edited by cushioncrawler; 12-26-2012 at 06:37 PM.

  8. #38
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    SOUL.
    Christianity See also: Soul in the Bible

    Soul carried to Heaven by William Bouguereau
    Most Christians understand the soul as an ontological reality distinct from, yet integrally connected with, the body. Its characteristics are described in moral, spiritual, and philosophical terms. According to a common Christian eschatology, when people die, their souls will be judged by God and determined to spend an eternity in Heaven or in Hell. Though all branches of Christianity –Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, Evangelical or mainline Protestants – teach that Jesus Christ plays a decisive role in the salvation process, the specifics of that role and the part played by individual persons or ecclesiastical rituals and relationships, is a matter of wide diversity in official church teaching, theological speculation and popular practice. Some Christians believe that if one has not repented of one's sins and trusted in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, one will go to Hell and suffer eternal damnation or eternal separation from God. Variations also exist on this theme, e.g. some which hold that the unrighteous soul will be destroyed instead of suffering eternally (Annihilationism). Believers will inherit eternal life in Heaven and enjoy eternal fellowship with God. There is also a belief that babies (including the unborn) and those with cognitive or mental impairments who have died will be received into Heaven on the basis of God's grace through the sacrifice of Jesus. And there are beliefs in universal salvation and Christian conditionalism.

    Among Christians, there is uncertainty regarding whether human embryos have souls, and at what point between conception and birth the fetus acquires a soul and consciousness. This uncertainty is the general reasoning behind many Christians' belief that abortion should not be legal.[54][55][56]

    The Damned Soul. Drawing by Michelangelo Buonarroti c. 1525
    Soul as the personality: Some Christians regard the soul as the immortal essence of a human – the seat or locus of human will, understanding, and personality.[citation needed]

    Trichotomy of the soul: Augustine, one of western Christianity's most influential early Christian thinkers, described the soul as "a special substance, endowed with reason, adapted to rule the body". Some Christians espouse a trichotomic view of humans, which characterizes humans as consisting of a body (soma), soul (psyche), and spirit (pneuma).[57] However, the majority of modern Bible scholars point out how spirit and soul are used interchangeably in many biblical passages, and so hold to dichotomy: the view that each of us is body and soul. Paul said that the "body wars against" the soul, and that "I buffet my body", to keep it under control. Philosopher Anthony Quinton said the soul is a "series of mental states connected by continuity of character and memory, [and] is the essential constituent of personality. The soul, therefore, is not only logically distinct from any particular human body with which it is associated; it is also what a person is". Richard Swinburne, a Christian philosopher of religion at Oxford University, wrote that "it is a frequent criticism of substance dualism that dualists cannot say what souls are... Souls are immaterial subjects of mental properties. They have sensations and thoughts, desires and beliefs, and perform intentional actions. Souls are essential parts of human beings..."

    Origin of the soul: The origin of the soul has provided a vexing question in Christianity; the major theories put forward include soul creationism, traducianism and pre-existence. According to creationism, each individual soul is created directly by God, either at the moment of conception or some later time (identical twins arise several cell divisions after conception, but no creationist would deny that they have whole souls). According to traducianism, the soul comes from the parents by natural generation. According to the preexistence theory, the soul exists before the moment of conception.

  9. #39
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    Philosophical views

    The Ancient Greeks used the same word for 'alive' as for 'ensouled', indicating that the earliest surviving western philosophical view believed that the soul was that which gave the body life. The soul was considered the incorporeal or spiritual 'breath' which animates (from the Latin, anima, cf. animal) the living organism.

    Francis M. Cornford quotes Pindar in saying that the soul sleeps while the limbs are active, but when one is sleeping, the soul is active and reveals in many a dream "an award of joy or sorrow drawing near."[10]

    Erwin Rohde writes that the early pre-Pythagorean belief was that the soul had no life when it departed from the body, and retired into Hades with no hope of returning to a body.[11]

    It has been argued that a strict line of causality fails to explain certain phenomena within
    human experience (such as free will) that have at times been attributed to the soul. (See also: Determinism and free will)
    Last edited by cushioncrawler; 12-27-2012 at 03:36 PM.

  10. #40
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    I think that, for christians, free will iz attributed to the soul -- koz the soul iz outside of the ordinary universe, and thusly outside ordinary causality etc, ie the soul defys cause and effekt etc.
    And i guess that in heaven the soul will continue to hav free will.
    mac.

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