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Thread: Newtown, Firefighter, Aurora Shooters Used Same Model Gun

  1. #41
    Senior Member
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    Oct 2005
    Ballarat Australia

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Soflasnapper View Post
    Or else, again, why would SigSauer associate themselves with such a bad weapon shooting a bad round, and of course, NATO (using the round)?
    Severl, obvious, reasons.

    1 - NATO does not use this round for this ... close quarters combat ... purpose.

    2 - For this purpose, NATO uses the SOST round which is the same caliber ... but a truly different animal. You obviously haven't had the slightest curiousity to learn the difference ... so I will, again, attempt to educate you on the topic.

    The standard 5.56 NATO round is designed to tumble and fragment when hitting a human, thus disintegrating into several smaller projectiles causing disabling ... but far from always lethal ... wounds that are way more often than not survived. Compounding this, to hit another human at fragmentation speed at 100 yards and more requires a muzzle velocity of round mach 3. At this speed, and at close combat range, the round will pass a human ... assuming it misses bone ... leaving an extremely small and clean wound.

    The SOST ... SPECIAL OPERATIONS SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY ... is an "OPEN TIP" design that incorporates a lead core copper clad front half of the projectile while the back half is solid copper rear half.

    The result of this is that when the bullet hits the body, the lead will flatten out, increasing the round size from .223 caliber to 4 to 8 times that instead of disintegrating into BB'ish sized fragments. This flowering of the bullet from a SOST round is why the massive exit wounds are observed.

    The SOST was developed because of the inherent short range deficiencies of the 5.56 NATO round. The standard round is an excellent choice for long range combat as it shoots far flatter and in a much tighter spiral... which equates to huge accuracy increases ... as well as the ability for a soldier to carry roughly twice as many rounds. The accuracy at range, in combination with allowing twice as many rounds to sent downrange does make up for the lower punch in the big picture.

    The standard M16 has raised sights which allow for simple adjustments compensating for gravity's effect on the round. The same sights are useless at close range. The military's close combat M16 loses the carry handle and raised front sights for a " FLAT TOP" design ... hence eliminating the parallax. They also use a shorter barrel and stock, alleviating the maneuverability problem.

    3 - SigArms is a for profit company, meaning they make full auto military arms, and what the public wants to buy ... and people who want an AR that isn't junk want a Sig. BTW ... if you ever want a home defense weapon, a Sig pistol with Federal HydraShock rounds, essentially a SOST pistol round, will IMHO do the job better than any handgun out there.

    4 - Sigs are accurate straight out of the box at an almost supernatural lever and jam far less than one in one thousand rounds. I bought mine for use in target shooting competitions.

    If you ever tried it, you would find that many of skills needed in billiards cross over to target shooting and widlife photography.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Soflasnapper View Post
    It doesn't appear that the BushMaster has the same sights as the AR-15, although that isn't clear.
    Here's what would be obvious, if you knew what you think you knew ... a BUSHMASTER AR-15 is an AR-15, just asa Sig AR-15 is an AR-15.

    The differences are not f design, but of production tolerances ... crap on a BUSHWHACKER, incredibly tight and consistent on a Sig ... quality of materials, etcetera.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by cushioncrawler View Post
    Any round that takes five rounds in the chest at close range to kill a man is ... relatively feeble.

  5. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    South Florida
    Any round that takes five rounds in the chest at close range to kill a man is ... relatively feeble.

    What showing is there that it took more than one? If you double tap someone to the head, does that mean you needed the second round?

    The DC sniper mainly killed everyone with a single bullet. The bullet? The feeble, when it comes to killing man-sized creatures, 5.56 round. (And not the SOST variety.)
    A medium sized fish [...]

  6. #46
    What was the distance involved?

    50 to 100 yards.

    Were stock sights used?

    No, a "RED DOT" reflex sight was used.

    Was the shooter a nut job kid sans training?

    No, John Allen Muhammad qualified at the US Army's highest marksmanship level for an M-16.

    Were the shootings done with a hand held weapon?

    No. The shooter used a rifle tripod from the modified trunk of a parked vehicle.

    Did the shooter kill with a single shot?

    No, the average was three shots per shooting.

    Did the shooter use standard 5.56 NATO rounds?

    No, the shooter used .223 REMINGTON hollow points, similar to the SOST rounds.

    So, in closing, in the DC sniper shootings we had a highly trained shooter, firing from a tripod mounted in a 4,000 lb base, using a more lethal round with an electronic sighting system ... and they needed thirty nine rounds to achieve ten kills of targets in an unobstructed field of view.

    And your point is exactly what?

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Soflasnapper View Post
    What showing is there that it took more than one? If you double tap someone to the head, does that mean you needed the second round?
    What shoes it is that there are five rounds in the chest ... if he goal s to kill a many as possible, why shoot someone five ties? Unless the first ... and second ... and third ... and fourth didn't achieve the desired result.

  8. #48
    More on the 5.56 NATO round:

    "February 2, 2007: Troops from the U.S. Army and Marine Corps are still complaining about the "inadequate stopping power" of the 5.56mm round used in the M-16 family of assault rifles. Last year, the army did a study of current 5.56mm M855 round, in response to complaints. Troops reported many reports where enemy fighters were hit with one or more M855 rounds and kept coming. The study confirmed that this happened, and discovered why. If the M855 bullet hits slender people at the right angle, and does not hit a bone, it goes right through. That will do some soft tissue damage, but nothing immediately incapacitating. The study examined other military and commercial 5.56mm rounds and found that none of them did the job any better. The study concluded that, if troops aimed higher, and fired two shots, they would have a better chance of dropping people right away. The report recommended more weapons training for the troops, so they will be better able to put two 5.56mm bullets where they will do enough damage to stop oncoming enemy troops. Marines got the same advice from their commanders. But infantrymen in the army and marines both continue to insist that the problem is not with their marksmanship, but with the 5.56mm bullet. Marines say they have used captured AK-47 rifles in combat, and found that the lower velocity, and larger, 7.62mm bullets fired by these weapons were more effective in taking down enemy troops.

    The army study did not address complaints about long range shots (over 100 meters), or the need for ammo that is better a blasting through doors and walls. The army had been considering a switch of a larger (6.8mm) round, and the Special Forces has been testing such a round in the field. But a switch is apparently off the table at the moment. The army report was not well received by the troops, and there is still much grumbling in the ranks over the issue."

    These problems are why the SOST round was developed.

    The problem, in reality, is that REMINGTON .223 is an abolutely devastating, athough expensive, round that the SOST attempts to mimic ... but hollow points rounds such as the REMINGTON .223 are illegal in combat.

    The workaround, as explained earlier is that the SOST uses a hollow point lead oud with a very thin copper shield over the front alf of the bullet ... and the solid rear half acts sort of like a hammer behind it.

    The SOST round really, IMHO, violates the intent ... if not the letter ... of international law.

  9. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    South Florida
    Did the shooter kill with a single shot?

    No, the average was three shots per shooting.
    Most of what you said was true, but this isn't, or is misleading. A string of the victims were killed with one bullet. So unless you are equivocating 'shots' for 'hits,' that cannot be right. Which takes away from your correct points.

    On the morning of October 3, four people were shot within a span of approximately two hours in Aspen Hill and other nearby areas in Montgomery County. Another was killed that evening in the District of Columbia, just over the border from Silver Spring.

    • At 7:41 a.m., James L. Buchanan, a 39-year-old landscaper known as "Sonny", was shot dead at 11411 Rockville Pike near Rockville, Maryland. Buchanan was shot while mowing the grass at the Fitzgerald Auto Mall.
    • At 8:12 a.m., 54-year-old part-time taxi driver Premkumar Walekar was killed in Aspen Hill in Montgomery County, while pumping gasoline into his taxi at a Mobil station at Aspen Hill Road and Connecticut Avenue.
    • At 8:37 a.m. Sarah Ramos, a 34-year-old babysitter and housekeeper, was killed at 3701 Rossmoor Boulevard at the Leisure World Shopping Center in Norbeck. She had gotten off a bus, and was seated on a bench, reading a book.[10]
    • At 9:58 a.m., in what was to be the last killing of the morning, 25-year-old Lori Ann Lewis-Rivera was killed while vacuuming her Dodge Caravan at the Shell station at the intersection of Connecticut & Knowles Avenues in Kensington, Maryland.
    • The snipers then waited until 9:15 p.m. before shooting Pascal Charlot, a 72-year-old retired carpenter, while he was walking on Georgia Avenue at Kalmia Road, in Washington, D.C. Charlot died less than an hour later.

    In each shooting, the victims were killed by a single bullet fired from some distance. The pattern was not detected until after the shootings occurred on October 3.[11]
    A medium sized fish [...]

  10. #50
    Here :

    You will find that the round, in a hollow point, will in fact match the 7.62 NATO ... did you ever wonder why they kept the 7.62? Did you notice the standard 5.56 wasn't even deemed worthy of testing for this use?

    Now that the round's power is possibly fixed ... we are left with theweapon itself being a horrible choice.

    If you notice are several pistol rounds that will deliver one shot stopping power of 90% or higher ... they all work from a much smaller, and easier to conceal/wield pistols ... they all can be used from a far more reliable and jam free weapon ... many can be used in a pistol mag holding as many rounds as the AR, or a rifle such as a "TOMMY" hoding ar more ... None have the paralax issue of the AR at short range

    Using your DC sniper example of 39 rounds needed to bring own 13 humans ... 33% ... would place it at the low end of the chart.

    I don't think it's that feeble ... but this chart is based on center of mass hits, difficult at best with said wepon under said situation. Luckily for victims, these type of school/mall/theater shooters use the Hollywood "SPRAY AND PRAY" method of aiming.

    This is born out by the shooter in Newtown firing 100 rounds to take down 28 victims ... that were in the same room with him. That's a 28 stopping power rate.

    The leftists who are wiling and gnashing their collectivist teeth about what a "GUN NUT" did should be glad it wan't actually a gun nut.

    If you doubt that, research Charles Whitman ... killed more people and wounded more people, and did it from a far greater distance and with far fewer rounds than the Newtown shooter.

    BTW ... he didn't choose a weapon chambered in 5.56 NATO.

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