I hav ordered some Eliminator sneaky petes from theusofa, surely the best woodtowood joint out there (allbeit with a small stainless pin and a small bit of brass) -- so lite, so neat, so economical -- compared to the massive big klunky, World War 1 surplus, over-engineered sad excuses for joints that i see on the web -- yuckkkkky. But its a pity that no-one puts their best maple in sneaky petes. Anyhow i will report back. mac.
Hey Mac, u think that sneaky is better than this McDermott cue for $45? Can also get em with no wrap for $39, and they hit surprisingly well. bambu.
That McDermott iz a nice cue. I like the idea of not having any splicing, and a midjoint (ie a real joint, not a 3/4 poofta snooker joint). However my preference iz a machine splice (ie 4 point clubstyle cue) rather than zero splice.
And i prefer a maplemaple (woodwood) (mid) joints. The $45 McDermott iz plastik to plastik i guess.
I know u kan buy proper wooden joints (expensive), with large threaded wooden pins etc. But i dont mind some (hidden) plastick pins or stainless pins and a small bit of female brass. But most woodtowood features large bits of plastic etc, not even hidden.
If a plastik pin etc haz a SG of 1.7, and the amount of plastik iz 4 times the size of metal bits, then u havnt saved anything kompared to say brass (SG 8). In fakt the plastik bits that i see look to be much more than 4 times.
So, Eliminator style small stainless pins glued in wood one end and skrewing into a small bit of female brass the other end iz pretty much az minimalist az u will ever find. The best joint in the world (praps even better than wooden pins etc).
Any big wt (or change of density etc) at midpoint must (badly) affekt the hit. The Eliminator peeple are not too worryd that the occassional joint might split. Whereaz McDermott & Co are terryfyd even if n when the cue iz only $45.
Catch 22. McDermott sell a say $300 shaft. They dont want it to split. So, they uze a massive big klunky, World War 1 surplus, over-engineered joint -- and now their shaft plays worse than a $30 shaft.
And of course i dont like the look (nor play i reckon) of all thems rings and inlays and wraps and rubber bumpers on butts . Whats wrong with a plain simple 4pt machine splice -- and surely it hits better. I unskrew bumpers first thing.
And i notice that many obvious (non-hidden) fat plastik or giant metal joints are now called sneaky petes -- NNOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! mac.
I own a pechauer pro series sneaky Pete. I paid $270 for it. If I was going to pay that much for quality there was no way I was going to pay for decoration. As it turned out the quality of the wood is so fine that it's a decoration in itself. I love the way it plays also. hizboyelroy.
A genuine quality cue iz worth every penny. But one kan get 12 Eliminators for $270, alltho u probly aint got much choice, all will be 13mm (but u hav choice of 18oz or 19 or 20 or 21).
I will be sanding my Eliminators down to 12mm and 11mm and 10mm and 9mm (for english billiards on 12ft table).
Some of my mates are getting (excellent) chineze and thailand snooker cues for $100 inklooding mini-butt and maxi-extn and cuecase and inklooding postage.
I suppoze that the quality of the wood in the butt aint important. But a strong stiff lite shaft-wood iz paramount. I wonder whether cuesmiths aktually measure shaft-maple and rank it (and uze the worst for sneaky petes).
All else being equal -- i would uze a vibration test to rank shafts. If same size shafts the higher frequency = bestest.
Snooker cues nowadays seem to hav lots of splices and different colors (wood), ie in the butts. I suppoze that the more splices then the less bending (warping) over time. Splices uzually look nice, but must be expensiv.
And, like i sayd, handsplices are overated hitwize, machine splices are probly just az good.
Idea. What if the butt half (of the pool cue) woz pure maple, praps with maple splices (if worryd about warpage). And, the dezired wt woz simply achieved by having a bigger skrew-in (permanent) metal rod (or adjustable if u want). Or, duz heavy buttwood really help the hit, kompared to maple with wt. mac.
Last edited by cushioncrawler; 10-30-2013 at 04:55 AM.
Alright then, I would like to try one. I happen to need an extra cue for my room, a cheapie. Can you post a link, mac? I like sneaky petes too, I have a meucci and a predator.... but not as my main cue. bamboo.
Are thems proper sneaky petes, ie where (when new at least) u karnt see the skrew-joint.
Nowadays u see pix of plastiktoplastik joints and they (the chineze?) call them sneaky petes.
And, i see that the chineze are fond of calling 3/4jointed cues "2pce" cues -- whereaz "2pce" haz allways been rezerved for midjointed cues. Bloody chineze.
Anyhow, i allways reckoned that Dufferins made the best maple cues -- for many years my main cue woz a 1pce with simple machine splice butt (4 points) -- u know, the classic yellowish shaft with the classic brown hardwood butt (bewdyfull). Gone now (but praps u kan get very junky copys with skrew tips). Eliminators are the closest thing (and i expekt that theze 2pce cues will play like a 1pce Dufferin). mac.
Did i ever mention that i won a long distance skrewing kontest with my 18oz 10.5mm 1pce 4point Dufferin. The other players with their snooker cues koodnt beleev it. They koodnt even get halfway to my superskrew. That Dufferin cost me $32 back in 1985. Pity i frankensteined it -- shortened it, and added wt in the butt (pity).
I am getting my latest lot of Eliminators from thebebop on ebay. If u google u kan pick an individual cue (on ebay) with the wt u prefer (18oz or pick 19 or 20 or 21) -- about $50 eech inklooding free postage i think. Or if u get 4 cues u uzually get one of eech wt. Or u kan get 6 cues, or even 12 cues.
I ordered 12 -- postage to here iz US$128 gulp, $11 per cue, plus $22 per, makes $33 per.
I will be sanding them down to different sizes, 12mm 11mm 10.5mm 10mm 9.5mm 9mm.
And i will be able to mix shafts with different wt butts. The wrong shafts uzually fit pretty good (but might be one thou out), and wrong shafts sometimes missalign (praps 1mm, pretty good). But the korrekt shaft on the korrekt butt iz (will be) perfikt (size-wize) and vizually (grain-wize).
I think they are made by cuetec, praps in theusofa (dunno). I koodnt find any other site selling Eliminators. And i koodnt find any similar cue or similar joint (i mean exaktly similar mapletomaple, not just size-wize) with a different badge.
3yr or 4yr ago i bort 4 Eliminators, but i think it woz from a different shop in a different state in the usofa. I experimented with theze 4 -- kut them down gradually in length and in dia, and modyfyd the butts too -- and now they are frankensteins monsters and too short etc. But along the way they hit better than any other cue. I remember setting skrewing records that i will never equal with my regular snooker cues, and hopefully the new Eliminators will be the equal.
One of theze skrewing tests iz where i hit the objektball halfball with softskrew, and see what sort of angle i kan get. The Eliminators (or at least one of them) gave an unbeleevable angle. I think this woz with one of my Triumph tips -- i dont know what tips they kum with, praps Triangle, or praps LePro (dunno). I might leev the original tips on, but uzually (without proper lathes etc) i expekt they wont survive the surgery. Anyhow, i will report back in a month or so. mac.
The sneakys I have look like wood to wood joints, like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eliminator-S...ht_1278wt_1164 As you said, you cant see the joint, only the screw threads. Actually, my predator joint sucks. Its one of those quick release pins that come loose. (I will never buy a non threaded joint again.) Is that the eliminator the cue you mean? I like dufferins too, still have a few left. Looks like you can still buy more from ozone here or at their site: bamboo.
Yes that iz the Eliminator. Look at that there petite stainless pin, glued direktly into wood. And it threads into a petite brass female sort of pipe in the shaft, very lite.
That there Dufferin 1pce pool cue iz similar to the oldendays Dufferin snooker/billiards cues, but not exaktly. The pool verzion iz 12.5mm with i think a big long plastik ferrule. The oldendays Dufferin snooker cues were about 10mm with a short black fibre ferrule. Nowadays the only Dufferin snooker style cues (ie about 10mm) that i kan find are ash (not maple), with big brass midjoints (ie just like other klunky makes).
Big klunky heavy massive brass etc joints are ok if they are a 3/4joint. Koz 3/4joints are at the sweet spot, where they dont affekt hit etc much at all. But a midjoint needstabe very lite, like i sayd, koz at midcue the extra wt affekts hit.
I dont know much about quick release joints -- but i thort that they all had at least a bit of thread.
I know they are heavy, praps heavyer than ordinary joints (not good for a midjoint, ok for a 3/4joint).
And praps u karnt do them up very very tite. I think we need to do joints up very very tite (u need to oil them, else u karnt) (this inkloods all joint, mid and 3/4). mac.
Another thing. Re low squirt shafts. U kan in effekt lessen the squerv of a cue if u add wt to the midjoint (I havnt aktually dunn this, nor the tests, but i am sure i am korrekt, i hav dunn similar tests).
Obviously adding wt at the midjoint duznt much affekt squirt, ie the initial angle the qball pushes out/offline (when uzing english), koz this squirt angle mostly depends on the wt etc of the first 8" of shaft. But the extra wt will affekt squerv.
Now, i aint saying that we kood improov a cue by adding wt at midjoint. However, any change kan/might/must improov something (but at the expense of other things).
But players need to understand that a cue with less power (ie with a worse hit) will hav "less" squerv.
Seeing az squerv kan be pozitiv or negativ (ie left of aimline or right of aimline) the adjektiv "less" iz sort of meaningless, but u know what i mean.
So, muecci and predator kan make a superlow-squirt shaft just by adding lots of wt to the midjoint. And such a cue would of course play badly (for most players). What players shood look for iz low-squirt (if thats what u want) kombined with hi-power (which we all want). I think most players dont realize this.
In other words, if u took wt out of a midjoint (if u kood), u would make the squerv worse. This would seem to be counterproduktiv, but it aint. Power iz paramount, squerv iz sekondary.
So, we shood all be uzing 1pce cues. But, if u want a 2pce cue, Eliminator wins (u wont get closer to a 1pce cue). mac.
Yes, I remember what you were saying about squerve and the mid joint weight. Never tried anything like that, but I do like low squirt shafts so I use a Z-2. Not sure about the power, never had a cue with what seemed like low power(except at bars of course). bamboo.
POWER and HIT are not straightforward concepts.
U kood say that a cue with good power will send the ball upndown the table further. But i hav some old thin whippy cues that do this very well, yet u karnt play powerskrews with them. So, i am thinking that the best test of good power iz the ability (kompared to other cues) to giv powerskrew.
There are two ways to measure/test powerskrew. Both probly giv the same rezults (for ranking cues).
U kan place the qball klose to the objektball.
U kan place the qball a long way from the objektball.
Not forgetting that the qtip iz a major faktor here az uzual.
I reckon that, if simply hitting a ball upndown the table, then a cue karnt be too stiff.
But for powerskrew a very stiff cue will rank badly. And a very heavy stiff cue worse still (for most players). Still thinking. mac.
I have a thin, whippy cue in my Z-2. Its only 11.75. Draws well because it allows me to hit lower on the ball, I think lol. Weight matters too for draw, where a lighter cue can draw better because its moving slightly faster. And also the wrist. I can get more draw with a wrist flick, adds more power. bambu.
Yes 11.75mm iz thick by billiards/snooker cue standards -- but it mainly depends on how much wood u hav back 8" and 18" -- a parallel taper 11.75mm kan be just az whippy (or az stiff) az a 10mm with a conical taper. For example thems 13mm Eliminators hav about the same mm at the midjoint az one of my 8.9mm billiards/snooker cues.
And yes, lighter kan giv better skrew -- and shorter kan giv better skrew (az long az the cue aint too short for the player's physique). mac.
Taper matters too, I agree. Its tough for me to relate to a 10mm though, I never tried one. For pool, 11.75 is pretty skinny. You don't see too many with less than that, mm wise. Only snooker I've ever played was just for practice, with regular 2 1/4" pool balls on a snooker table. bambu.
My 12 (sneakypete) Eliminators arrived today from Texas (but are made in China) -- 4 are 18oz, 2 are 19oz, 3 are 20oz, 3 are 21oz (theze are the stamped wts, some are very underwt).
The 12 (maple) shafts are identikal (13.2mm) and interchangeable. Lightest shaft weighs 4.02oz -- heavyest 4.78oz -- that's a large range. I will uze the lightest shafts, koz theze might hav the best wt-strength ratio (or wt-bendicity, whatever).
That's one of thems funny quirx of statistix and quality kontrol -- the worse the quality kontrol the greater the chance of getting a really great (cheap) shaft. In other words if quality kontrol iz better then u get lots of mediocrity and less out-lyers.
The lepro (I think) tips are too hard for billiards on a 12' table (with small balls). U karnt get much skrew or side -- u get lots of missedcues. I might change the tip(s) to something softer. I am getting better rezults with my old batch of shortened Eliminator shafts that i hav sanded down to 11.2mm (and with soft elk or soft triumph tips).
Anyhow I will report on progress over the next weeks. The rubber bumpers will of course havta go. And i will sand the 13.2mm down to 12.2mm and 11.2mm and praps 10.2mm.
Last edited by cushioncrawler; 10-30-2013 at 05:28 AM.
Ok, i sanded an Eliminator shaft down to 11.0mm at 4pm -- and then i used it to win my (billiards) match at 9pm. So far so good.
New maple iz too white -- i like it when it browns up a bit with age. And the sanded bit (200mm) iz even whiter. I will rub linseed oil into it, and i might even stain it -- what color, grey praps (any ideas).
Sanding woz eezy koz my brother haz a wood lathe. I used a sharp file to file down the white plastik ferrule -- and then sandpaper for the shaft.
The filing ruffed up the edge of the lepro leather tip, and made it softer i think (good) -- so i left it on instead of replacing it with an elk.
I notice that a hard tip allways plays softer when it iz reduced in diameter (in my case it went from 13.2mm to 11.0mm) -- good, usofa pool tips are much too hard for billiards.
I allso made one shaft 10.8mm. Anyhow i hav a big tournament tomorrow. So, i havtahav some praktis. And i might "make" some more shafts if praktis aint very good.
I did find a similar joint (wood-wood) to Eliminator -- its called/branded a Viper -- obviously from the same faktry in China -- and iz 58" instead of 57" (karnt remember exactly) -- and a different bumper.
Viper haz a higher price -- and with Eliminators u kan get even cheaper deals for 4off or 6off or 12off.
Ok, i hav now sanded down 3 Eliminator sneaky-pete shafts -- they are 10.0mm 10.5mm & 11.0mm (originally all were 13.2).
I will uze the 10.0 or 10.5 in tonites team billiards game in Geelong. I will report back.
Every time I get a delivery from theusofa I like to read the newspapers uzed for stuffing. This time it woz from Texas.
I like reading small town opinion pages, and small town news and sales and sports and adverts and real estate. Small towns are the same all over the globe.
Last edited by cushioncrawler; 11-05-2013 at 07:29 PM.
11.0mm. Az I sayd i won Thursday gainst wayne uzing an 11.0 Eliminator (conical taper). English billiards here, 12' table, 2-/16" balls.
10.0mm. Saturday i won gainst clancey uzing a 10.0 (parallel taper) -- and gainst david -- but woz knocked out by steve.
10.0mm. Wednesday i won gainst bob uzing that 10.0 again.
10.5mm. Thursday i won gainst jamie uzing a 10.5 (parallel taper). I think i like the 10.5 best overall. I will probly uze this in future.
Parallel Taper. I sanded the 11.0 from conical to parallel. All 3 shafts now hav a parallel taper. I hav 9 new shafts remaining, eech 13.2mm.
Squirt. The 10.0 haz less squirt than any cue i hav ever used -- too little squirt aktually, for longrange shots anyhow (12' table here).
Parallel Taper. This works well, plenty of power, surprisingly -- koz i do mean parallel (not sort of parallel). The parallel bits are 12-1/2"-- a bit longer than my bridge-length.
2 Stage Rockets. But parallel looks funny -- the three shafts all look like 2-stage rockets (everyone larffed & larffed).
Linseed Oil. I hav now rubbed raw linseed oil into the sanded maple -- this yellowed it down (got rid of the pure white look) -- i think i kan tolerate the look (i probly wont uze any stain to brown-down).
Wood-To-Wood. My wood-wood Eliminator joint cue kost me $22 eech (plus $11 postage from the usofa). My teammate john haz a wood-wood adams cue that he payd $750 for approx. 30yr ago -- equiv to approx. $2500 in todays money. And johns joint iz mostly big klunky massiv plastic, not really wood at all.
Bronze Age. And uzing a pool cue (allbeit a kutdown pool cue) for billiards aint ever been heard of round here -- great big white ferrule and all. Everyone here haz nice imported kostly handspliced ash ebony yadda-yadda-yadda snooker cues. But i kood see that players were impressed with the Eliminator joints -- and their brass joints must be starting to look like bronze-age relics.
Anyhow, so far so good. More later.
Last edited by cushioncrawler; 11-07-2013 at 04:49 PM.