13.2mm. I had a go at hitting some of my 2-1/4" pool balls (169gm) uzing a non-altered Eliminator shaft -- to get the feel of what pool players feel.
Dr Onoda. The balls still had markings on them from years ago, when i uzed them to peer-review some of Dr Onoda's pool physics stuff.
Kontrol. The larger heavyer (pool) balls are eezyer to kontrol than the 2-1/16" (billiards) balls (141gm).
Squirt. I reckon that 13.2mm shafts are too squirty (ie too tip-heavy). I needed a bridge length of 11" for my backhandpivot tests, for slowish shots (2-1/4" balls). For more powerfull shots i needed less than 11". In theory, this pivot L suites my natural bridge L, but allthesame i don't like it.
Squirt. In regard to billiards (2-1/16" balls), i prefer my billiards cues to allow me to uze fronthandpivot, at least for softish shots -- a 9.0mm shaft uzually duzz the trick. Just for interest, uzing a 13.2mm Eliminator, for backhandpivot, for softish shots, I needed a bridge L of 6".
12.0mm. If i played pool i might uze 12.0mm or even 11.5mm. I wouldn't uze hollowed shafts -- i would prefer to uze solid maple, allbeit praps 0.5mm thinner if need be, rather than hollow.
20oz. Iz too light for 169gm balls. If i played pool i might uze a 25oz cue (Eliminator of course).
24.1mm. I suspekt that poolcue midjoints are too small -- they shood be say 25mm or 26mm. I reckon this would allow u to hav a say 11.5mm tip diameter, and a parallel taper, while retaining cue-power. Hell, some snooker cues hav 24mm midjoints, for piddly little 141gm balls.
Nickel Dime. The LePro qtips had a 10mm radius -- this woz good for skrew and side.
I flattened one tip to about a 20mm radius -- this woznt very good for skrew and side (alltho it in effekt reduced squirt a bit).
If i uzed a 12mm diameter shaft, praps i would prefer a tip radius a bit less than 10mm, eg 9mm.
Last edited by cushioncrawler; 11-08-2013 at 08:59 PM.
LePro tips. Unfortunately the LePro tip on my 10.5mm shaft had a shear failure, and I replaced it with a 10mm Elk tip (actual size 10.3mm).
I had grown to like the LePro tips. They are too hard when 13.2mm, but they play softer when kut down to 10mm or 11mm, ie keeping the same depth of leather. I think LePros hav a hardness rating of 78, and Elks praps 50.
Anyhow I woz getting good skrew and side with the LePro, but unfortunately I missedcued on a skrew shot, and I woz surprized to find that there woz damage. Or, I shood say, the tip had a shear failure, resulting in the missedcue. Pity, the LePro looked impressive, like the empire state building on the end of the shaft.
Elks are just shredded leather glued back together in a lump. I think they are not punched out of a layer, I think they are moulded and then the glue sets. Some hav a lean, which shows that they were moved while still green. Elks are described az having a single layer -- this iz an error -- a glued-lump of shredded leather iznt a layer.
Are LePros punched out of a single layer of real leather, or are they too a glued-lump?
I reckon that glued-lumps will not skrew etc az well az real leather -- the glue duznt hav the friction of leather.
Some billiards and snooker players are now using layered tips (eg kamui) -- but I think that sometimes the glue tween layers kan affect the skrew almost az much az the glue in a glued-lump (if the glue tween layers happens to get involved in the kontakt area with the qball).
However a (layered) pig-skin qtip iz possibly better (for skrewing etc) than a buffalo-skin qtip (ie real leather, not glued)(one layer or more than one layer). Praps someone knows.
Last edited by cushioncrawler; 11-10-2013 at 07:26 PM.
I (once again) googled wood to wood joints, and sneaky petes, etc. Hell, there iz lots of shite out there. Sneaky petes that are actually big klunky ww1 surplus krapp -- not sneaky at all. Some are similar to Eliminators but over 100 times the price -- $2500 instead of $22.
I GOT THIS FROM POOLDAWG. MY COMMENTS IN CAPITALS.
Wood to Wood Pool Cues -- by Michael Feiman -- What is a Wood to Wood jointed pool cue?
When it comes to discussing pool cue designs, none is more traditional than a cue with a wood to wood style joint. What we are referring to here is the connection between the butt and the shaft. In some cases, there will be metal or plastic at the connection end of each. With wood to wood jointed cues, you have a direct connection between the two (as seen in the picture of the Lucasi sneaky pete below).
The concept behind the feel of the wood to wood hit has to do with energy transfer.
I DONT AGREE THAT THE CONCEPT WOZ RE FEEL -- THE CONCEPT WOZ RE STEALTH.
Shamos -- sneaky Pete -- ... A jointed cue having no collar and whose joint has been disguised so the cue appears to be a one-piece cue...... sometimes known as a "hustler"....
With a wood to wood jointed cue like the Meucci 9701 or the Lucasi LZ2000SP featured here, the energy from the tip transfers down the shaft and into the butt, giving the player more feel when they strike the ball.
MICHAEL RECKONS THAT WOODTOWOOD AFFEKTS FEEL -- THATS WHY MICHAEL TALKS OF ENERGY GOING FROM TIP TO BUTT. I RECKON IT AFFEKTS HIT -- ENERGY GOING FROM BUTT TO TIP TO BALL.
MICHAEL INFERS THAT MORE ENERGY IZ TRANSFERRED, GIVING MORE FEEL. AND MICHAEL INFERS THAT MORE FEEL IZ BETTER THAN LESS FEEL.
Shamos -- The Illustrated Encyclopedia Of Billiards -- joint -- ....The question whether a metal-to-metal or wood-to-wood joint is superior is not yet settled. The issue concerns the efficiency of transmitting force across the boundary between two materials having differing speeds of sound.....
A true wood to wood joint will give you a feel that is closest to a one piece bar cue from an energy transfer perspective.
MICHAEL INFERS ..... THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENT FEELS ......THAT ONE TYPE OF FEEL IZ RELATED TO ENERGY TRANSFER .....THAT THE FEEL OF A ONE PIECE BAR CUE IZ GOOD.
I RECKON THAT FEELS ALLSO RELATE TO WT AND BALANCE AND VIBRATION AND POWER AND HIT AND SQUIRT AND SQUERVE AND LOOKS.
It is extremely important to note that there is no advantage or disadvantage to the different joint types. Whether or not the feel of the cue works for you is a matter of personal preference. Your best bet is to try the different joint styles and see what feels right to you.
MICHAEL RECKONS THAT NO-JOINTS AND YES-JOINTS AND JOINT-TYPES AND JOINT-STYLES HAV NO ADVANTAGES OR DISADVANTAGES BUT DO HAV DIFFERENT FEELS. MICHAEL RECKONS THAT FEELS CAN WORK FOR YOU -- AND THAT FEELS CAN FEEL RIGHT TO YOU. IF IT WORKS BUT DUZNT FEEL RIGHT, OR IF IT FEELS RIGHT BUT DUZNT WORK, THEN MICHAEL SAYS TO GO WITH WHAT FEELS RIGHT.
Most cues from Meucci, McDermott and Elite feature wood to wood joints and that soft, fluid hit. In addition, most cues that fall under the category of hustler or sneaky pete will feature a wood to wood joint.
MICHAEL INFERS THAT A SOFT FLUID HIT MIGHT WORK OR MIGHT FEEL RIGHT.
FOR A SOFT HIT I WOULD LOOK FOR A RUBBER JOINT. FOR A FLUID HIT I WOULD LOOK FOR A HYDRAULIC JOINT.
Shamos -- flat joint -- A cue joint that is formed by mounting a screw in the butt end, leaving exposed wood surrounding the screw so that wood meets wood when the cue is screwed together.....
Shamos -- piloted joint -- A cue joint in which a metal fitting is inserted into the shaft and a screw protrudes from the butt, in which metal meets metal when the cue is assembled for play.....
Last edited by cushioncrawler; 11-11-2013 at 05:03 PM.
Dufferin Phantom 58'' 12.5mm Pool Cue
The Phantom features a hidden target joint that does not distract the eye during play and allows more wood-on-wood contact. During shot making, wood-on-wood contact at the joint delivers minimal vibration and compression similar to that of a one-piece cue. The shaft is made from Canadian Hard Rock Maple and uses a 1'' fibre ferrule and Le Pro leather tip. This cue can be custom balanced with the incorporated Dufferin weight balancing system.
Price: $89.99 CDN
Last edited by cushioncrawler; 11-30-2013 at 07:41 PM.
Best cue joint?
I just bought a beautiful wood on wood radial pin joint cue in Angeles City from a locally known builder. Cored cue, four points inlayed, sneaky pete. It's entirely Amboyna Burl except for the requisite maple. It looks like "Candy". Sitting on the shelf in the open environment for over a year. Still dead nut's straight. 18.7 oz's natural weight, no weight bolt. $300.00 US.
Anyway the joint, first time I've had a cue like this, seems like a soft hitter?
Re: Best cue joint?
I switched to the radial pin wood to wood joint about 10 years ago, and really like the feel. I recently started playing with a Fury Evolution and like it even better than the Fury RP I used for years. Both have the same joint, and yes, it is what most would describe as a softer hit. The new Evolution doesn't have a wrap, and I'm finding I like it better than I thought I would. I've never had a wrapless cue before, but it actually seems to let me get an even better feel. Anyway, you will probably get a lot of different opinions, but for my money, the Radial wood to wood is hard to beat. Steve
Re: Joint Technology
Don't sell the 3/8-10 joint short. I've been making Qs with this joint, since 1986 & I have yet to have one of my Qs come back with a stripped out thread in the shaft. The advantage of this thread, is that the screw makes contact with the wood in the shaft & gives you the most feed back from the tip to the hand. In short you get MORE FEEL with this joint. It also has the effect of a SOFTER hit. IT'S ANYTHING BUT FRAGILE...JER
Re: Joint Technology
BLACKHEART, You stated this joint provides the most feedback and a softer hit. Does this joint type produce a solid hit while at the same time a soft hit? If so, GREAT! Thanks, JayCee
Re: Joint Technology
The 3/8-10 joint screw has large, course deep threads much like a wood screw, only not tapered. You wouldn't think of trying to hold two pieces of wood together with a FINE threaded screw. The courser threaded screw has more surface area & much deeper thread. In other words it has more holding power in wood. I like this screw because it's simple to install, less chance to get things off center than if you were useing a 2 or 3 step prosses like when you use a bushing.
The Southwest screw has 11 threads to the inch, which is finer & not as deep. It also is not as available as the more common 3/8-10. I think that Acme threads would work well for pool Qs, but again Acme srcews are not as commonly available. I have to admit, that I have not tryed the radial screw system, because I think it's more expensive, more complicated & I just plain don't see why I want to change what ain't broke.
Any joint system, that holds the 2 pieces tightly together works well for pool Qs. Steel jointed Qs tend to be more front heavy, which I personally don't like as well as a more balanced feel.
If you screw a Q together with a fine threaded screw(with a bushing), & a 3/8-10 joint you'll notice something right away. When the fine threaded one is 1/2 turn away from being tight, its very floppy & loose. On the other hand the 3/8-10 at the same distance is firm & with less play. I have experimented with lots of different joint systems & this is what works for me. I get, what my customers call a firm, solid hit yet easy to draw the ball, with control. Part of this is due to the joint & partly to the shaft taper & ferrule. If I changed any part of the equation I would be making something other than a BLACK HEART...JER
Last edited by cushioncrawler; 11-30-2013 at 07:41 PM.
I reckon that a 3/8" stainless with 10 coarse threads per inch -- skrewing directly into the maple shaft -- iz good thinking.
But praps it iz risky for shafts that havnt been laminated from say 4 sectors or more -- plain shafts might krack if overtightened -- however kracking iz no big deal if using nice cheap shafts. But implex or steel etc collars (to save kracking) are stupid bronze-age thinking -- too much wt.
However I favour 5/16" stainless with a fine thread -- skrewing into a minimalist brass sleeve (az for Eliminators and Vipers and Dufferins). A 5/16" would hav less overall wt I think (compared to 3/8"), despite the brass bit.
Aktually I don't see why the 3/8" iznt turned down to say 5/16" or even 4/16" for where it glues into the butt -- to save wt.
Another thing, 3/8" iz I think too stiff, it places too much stress into the shaft (if the alignment aint perfikt). But it would be bendy enuff if reduced az described abov.
Re the 5/16" joints, these would be even better (less wt) if the brass female sleev bit woz stainless instead -- afterall some brass haz a SG of over 8.0 and stainless iz under 5.0 (maple iz 0.7, and water iz 1.0). But praps steel to brass enjoys some sort of advantage re having some giv which allows a tighter better fitting more efficient joint (dunno).
Hmmmm -- with 5/16" joints -- u kood hav playable 3-pce sneaky petes.
Whereaz with bronze-age joints a 3-pce cue would play shite on any table.
Last edited by cushioncrawler; 11-30-2013 at 07:40 PM.
The Viking site mentions soft hit, firm hit, solid hit, hard hit etc etc -- for wood to wood and wood to iplex and iplex to iplex and iplex to steel and steel to steel etc etc. I wonder what all of this means.
I doubt that joints much affect play on a 9' table.
But for sure lite or heavy joints affect play on a 12' table. Squirt and squerve and power and akuracy bekum serious issues at long range. But on an 8' or 9' table, forget it.
Praps 3-cushion on a 10' table iz affected by joints, dunno.
Buttress thread .....................From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Buttress thread form
The buttress thread form, also known as the breech-lock thread form, refers to two different thread profiles. One is a type of leadscrew and the other is a type of hydraulic sealing thread form. The leadscrew type is often used in machinery and the sealing type is often used in oil fields.
Buttress thread in machinery
In machinery, the buttress thread form is designed to handle extremely high axial thrust in one direction. The load-bearing thread face is perpendicular to the screw axis. or at a slight slant (usually no greater than 7°) The other face is slanted at 45°. The resulting thread form has the same low friction properties as a square thread form but at about twice the shear strength due to the long thread base. This thread form also is easy to machine on a thread milling machine, unlike the difficult to machine square thread form. It can also compensate for nut wear using a split nut, much like the Acme thread form.
Buttress threads have often been used in the construction of artillery, particularly with the screw-type breechblock. They are also often used in vises, because great force is only required in one direction.
WHY HAZNT SOMEONE MADE A 3/8 10 JOINT (THAT SKREWS INTO PURE MAPLE) UZING A BUTTRESS THREAD??????????????????????
SHAFTS WOULDNT SPLIT. NO NEED FOR SLEEVS. NO NEED FOR COLLARS.
Last edited by cushioncrawler; 11-30-2013 at 07:39 PM.
from azbilliards archives.....
........A flat form buttress thread would be stronger as there is no radial stress emanating from the angled contact areas. The compromise is that wood does not have a very strong shear strength, hence the course pitch in wood screws.
It could be done, but who knows what if little advantage there would be.
A possible use could be for sneaky type cues that do not have joint collars to strengthen the shaft radially.
Neil Lickfold. Cuttlefish Cues.