Safety question????

A new wrinkle surfaced tonite in league play dealing with safety play. An object ball was frozen on a cushion & the player was going to strike this object ball and drive the cue ball to the same rail to execute the safety & the opposing player said it was gonna be a "foul" unless he drives the cue ball to a different rail then the one the object ball was frozen to. This was an eight ball pool league and we all know of peculiar rules but is this the norm for safety play? I was under the thought that only two rules applied to safety play & they are: you either drive an object ball to a rail or the cue ball to the rail after contacting an object ball. Am I wrong? [img]/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[Rod]

I don't know what rules your league plays by. Here is the BCA rule.

4.11 LEGAL SHOT
(Defined) On all shots (except on the break and when the table is open), the shooter must hit one of his group of balls first and (1) pocket a numbered ball, or (2) cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a rail. Please Note: It is permissible for the shooter to bank the cue ball off a rail before contacting the object ball; however, after contact with the object ball, an object ball must be pocketed, or the cue ball or any numbered ball must contact a rail. Failure to meet these requirements is a foul.

Rod

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dewey52:</font><hr> A new wrinkle surfaced tonite in league play dealing with safety play. An object ball was frozen on a cushion &amp; the player was going to strike this object ball and drive the cue ball to the same rail to execute the safety &amp; the opposing player said it was gonna be a "foul" unless he drives the cue ball to a different rail then the one the object ball was frozen to. This was an eight ball pool league and we all know of peculiar rules but is this the norm for safety play? I was under the thought that only two rules applied to safety play &amp; they are: you either drive an object ball to a rail or the cue ball to the rail after contacting an object ball. Am I wrong? [img]/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] <hr /></blockquote>

no, he was confused. the frozen ball rule where he declares it frozen only talks about the object ball. you can have the c.b. hit that rail after hitting the frozen o.b.

the bca frozen ball rule is 3.38 and is longer than i want to quote here. the bca.com site has it if you need to print it out and show the guy.


dan

[WaltVA]

You don't say what league is involved, but you are right under APA rules, which state, "Once it is agreed that the ball is frozen, the opponent must either drive the object ball to another rail....or drive the cue ball to the rail after it touches the object ball. If the latter method of safety is chosen, the player should take care that he quite obviously strikes the object ball first. If the cue ball strikes th rail first or appears to hit the rail and ball simultaneously, then it would be a foul unless either the cue ball or object ball went to some other rail."

Walt in VA

[SpiderMan]

You were correct. If the object ball is frozen to a rail, you can play a legal safety by hitting the object ball first and then letting the cue ball continue on to hit the same rail. This is true in BCA, APA, and VNEA leagues.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote WaltVA:</font><hr> You don't say what league is involved, but you are right under APA rules, which state, "Once it is agreed that the ball is frozen, the opponent must either drive the object ball to another rail....or drive the cue ball to the rail after it touches the object ball. If the latter method of safety is chosen, the player should take care that he quite obviously strikes the object ball first. If the cue ball strikes th rail first or appears to hit the rail and ball simultaneously, then it would be a foul unless either the cue ball or object ball went to some other rail."

Walt in VA <hr /></blockquote>

interesting. that's a difference between apa and bca then. bca has a general principal, and a rule, that shots that are "too close to call" go to the shooter.

dan

[Wally_in_Cincy]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote houstondan:</font><hr>
interesting. that's a difference between apa and bca then. bca has a general principal, and a rule, that shots that are "too close to call" go to the shooter.

dan<hr /></blockquote>

That's the case in APA also, if there is no ref. If the foul is blatant (in the non-shooter's opinion) but the two parties can't agree, rack and start the game over.

I think [img]/ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[SPetty]

They may be thinking of the Texas Express 9-ball rules which state:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote texasexpress.com:</font><hr>6.5: Object Ball Frozen to a Rail

If the lowest numbered object ball is frozen to a rail, the player must 1) drive that object ball to another rail, or 2) drive another numbered ball to the rail resulting from a hit initiated by the lowest numbered ball struck, or 3) drive the cue ball to another rail, or 4) legally pocket a numbered ball. Failure to do any of these resulting from an object ball being frozen to the rail results in a cue ball-in- hand foul. The frozen object ball must be declared and the opponent must acknowledge prior to the shot. <hr /></blockquote>

I've often wondered about this rule myself, in that I don't think I've ever seen anyone call this foul.

[WaltVA]

dan - APA has the same principle; the rule on "good hit-bad hit" fouls says, "In general, the shooter has the advantage in close hit situations unless his opponent has asked an outside party to watch the hit....If the outside party cannot determine which ball was struck first, the call goes to the shooter."

In certification classes, referees are also instructed that unless the hit is obviously bad, the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt.

I read the frozen ball safety rule as an admonition on how to execute the shot properly. IMO, if there were disagreement on whether or not the CB hit the OB before the rail or it was simultaneous, the call would go to the shooter.

Walt in VA