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Thread: Which shaft produces more english

  1. #1
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    Which shaft produces more english

    I read in a previous post that when using a Preditor shaft
    that you only have to use 1/2 the english as with a normal shaft. My question: Which shaft gives you more english; a stiff or flexable shaft? (Both have the same tip)
    Thanks for any contributions.

    PoolFool

  2. #2
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    Re: Which shaft produces more english

    Poll time.. ?





  3. #3
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    Re: Which shaft produces more english

    I don't believe that any shaft (including the Predator) gives you more or less English that any other. Spin is dependant only on the tip contact point and the speed, and since neither of these are determined by the shaft, then it cannot influence the outcome.

    What can?

    Weight - a light cue or a heavy cue can both produce the same amount of spin. But the lighter cue produces a bit less speed, so the spin/speed ratio is changed.

    Tip curvature, and the ability of the tip to hold chalk.

    Tip size, but only in the event that it might be possible to be more accurate with your tip contact point estimation (we can't see the actual tip contact point, so it is always a guess) with a smaller tip than a larger tip.

    The shaft stiffness can have only one possible effect. If the shaft is very flexible, it might change the energy transfer efficiency (less cueball speed for a given cue speed). However, the amount of spin will remain the same, but the spin/speed ratio will be slightly reduced.

    Many pool players operate under the mistaken notion that a flexible shaft can produce lots of "juice" on the cueball. Clearly these players have never seen a world class 3 cushion player spin a cueball with a very stiff carom cue!

    Hit the ball in the right place, with the right speed, with a good tip, and you can get all of the spin that any cue (or player) can deliver.

    Cheers!

    Tony

  4. #4
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    Re: Which shaft produces more english

    Well guys, after reading all the posts I still have to say a stiff shaft performs better. I have several shafts for my Schuler cue, most are of the same weight. Whenever I switch to a stiff shaft I feel more "grip" on the cue ball resulting in more spin. Billiard players use a lot of spin and seem to faver a stiff shaft.

  5. #5
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    Re: Which shaft produces more english

    I don't know much about the mechanics of the equiptment but I do know that when I switched from a whippy shaft to the Preditor I get more English with the same type stroke. I'm not questioning it I'm just using it. Now when I hit other shafts I think there broken.

  6. #6
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    Re: Which shaft produces more english

    trouble-maker :-)

  7. #7
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    Re: Which shaft produces more english

    Bob.. you know me.. always trying to stir things up and adding my 2 worth

  8. #8
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    Re: Which shaft produces more english

    <blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> I don't believe that any shaft (including the Predator) gives you more or less English that any other. Spin is dependant only on the tip contact point and the speed, and since neither of these are determined by the shaft, then it cannot influence the outcome.

    What can?

    Weight - a light cue or a heavy cue can both produce the same amount of spin. But the lighter cue produces a bit less speed, so the spin/speed ratio is changed.

    Tip curvature, and the ability of the tip to hold chalk.

    Tip size, but only in the event that it might be possible to be more accurate with your tip contact point estimation (we can't see the actual tip contact point, so it is always a guess) with a smaller tip than a larger tip.

    The shaft stiffness can have only one possible effect. If the shaft is very flexible, it might change the energy transfer efficiency (less cueball speed for a given cue speed). However, the amount of spin will remain the same, but the spin/speed ratio will be slightly reduced.

    Many pool players operate under the mistaken notion that a flexible shaft can produce lots of "juice" on the cueball. Clearly these players have never seen a world class 3 cushion player spin a cueball with a very stiff carom cue!

    Hit the ball in the right place, with the right speed, with a good tip, and you can get all of the spin that any cue (or player) can deliver.

    Cheers!

    Tony <hr></blockquote>





    Well, Tony some of your views are correct but some are kind of off. The tip of the cue is not the only factor in increased or decreased english on the cue ball. Along with some of your mentioned factors the shaft flex is very important in the amount of english you can put on a cue ball. The deflection of a shaft has more than you think to do with this. Predator shafts are supposedly one of the shafts made today with the least amount of cue ball deflection. Therefore the cuetip stays in contact longer in the point of contact. Which in turn gives you a more accurate shot and more english (or should I say the amount of english you put on the ball). If you shaft has a lot of deflection then your cuetip is not going to stay in contact with the ball in the point of contact but will in turn deflect off the ball in an undesired direction and put more or less english on the ball and make the shot less accurate since the tip did not stay in the desired point of contact for the proper amount of time to execute the shot correctly. Weight of the cue has some bearing on the matter. Momentum is higher in the heavier cue since there is more mass but on certain shots like the break for example. The lighter cue can put more speed on the ball because the lighter the cue the faster you can make it travel. This is why most break cues nowadays are around 18 oz. Vice being 22 or 23 oz. The thought process back in the day was that the heavier the cue the faster the ball can travel but in recent years this has been prove to be false. Hence the change to lighter break cues. Tip size does effect amount of english. The smaller the tip size the more english that is able to be imparted on the ball. A smaller diameter tip has a smaller contact point and therefore has less friction on the ball when struck. Smaller surface contact allows you to be able to make contact on more of the edge of the ball than a bigger diameter tip. Keep in mind we are taking about mm's. and not inches so these subtle differences might not be noticable to some people. However do this test to prove the tip size theory. Take a cue that is say 12.25 mm in shaft diameter and take a cue that is 13 mm and set up a cut shot, something with a good amount of angle. Use inside or outside english to make the ball. Now set it up again and hit the cue ball in the same spot as with the other cue. You will see the difference. On the lighter side of your comments I do agree with the last statement. If you hit the ball correctly and with the proper equipment you will have enough english to do the job. Familiarization with the cue you use is a big deal. If you know the limitations of your equipment then you can make adjustments for your game.

  9. #9
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    Re: Which shaft produces more english

    Shane wrote:

    "Along with some of your mentioned factors the shaft flex is very important in the amount of english you can put on a cue ball."

    Well Shane, I know of no physical effect that can explain how shaft flex can affect the amount of english that is possible to put on a ball. As I mentioned, the flex can effect the spin/speed ratio (due to a slight change in energy loss), but not the actual amount of spin.
    If you believe this to be true, you will have to suggest a mechanism for it to work. I have seen pool players claim that a flexible shaft can induce more english, and 3 C players who claim that a stiff shaft can juice the ball better. Both cannot be correct. In fact, neither are.

    "Predator shafts are supposedly one of the shafts made today with the least amount of cue ball deflection. Therefore the cuetip stays in contact longer in the point of contact."

    Predator shafts do indeed produce less squirt than many other production shafts. But this in no way means that the cuetip stays in contact with the ball longer! Why would you think that it does?

    In fact, since the contact point and speed at contact are the same for a shaft with high or low squirt, the spin speed ratio cannot be affected. The contact time will remain the same. Ron Shepard in his paper on squirt does indeed state that a very low squirt shaft might produce slightly more spin that a high squirt shaft, but the reason has nothing whatsoever to do with contact time. The reason is that the high squirt cue loses more energy during the collision by moving the cuestick and the ball to the side. However, the amount is basically insignificant.

    Your points on break cue weight are irrelevant to the discussion about english, but are basically correct.

    You are incorrect regarding the issue of tip size versus spin however. Draw a diagram for yourself, or do the geometry. The contact point is affected only by the curvature of the tip, not the diameter. For tips of equal curvature a change in diameter only, does not change the contact point at all!

    So a small tip with a nickel curvature will have the same contact patch size (area) as a large tip with a nickel curvature. Again, make a simple sketch to satisfy yourself!

    By the way, I have studied these issues for years and have done many experiments, as well as corresponded with many other researchers. My comments are not merely speculation.

    Regards,

    Tony

  10. #10
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    Re: Which shaft produces more english

    <blockquote><font class="small">Quote: PoolFool:</font><hr> My question: Which shaft gives you more english; a stiff or flexable shaft? (Both have the same tip)
    Thanks for any contributions.<hr></blockquote>

    If you mean spin/speed ratio, then I'm of the camp that says that the shaft stiffness (and tip hardness) is insignificant.

    If you mean simply more spin, then I say the more energy return, the more spin, and that would mean a harder tip. But the more spin comes more speed, since the spin/speed ratio is still the same. But, that could mean the difference between getting and not getting more *spin* with a certain stroke, if for some reason absolute spin (rotational velocity) was your only concern.

    Fred
    <font color="blue">You cannot create experience. You must undergo it.</font color>

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