#289718 - 11/07/09 10:54 AM
Re: Teaching When To Play Safe?
[Re: Bambu]
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Fenwick
newbie
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 47
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" Most bar players begin league play with a bar pool frame of mind. Its the only foundation they have, so its to be expected. Defense is simply not an option in a bar. Worse, its considered dirty play. But once they lose a match or 2 to some good defense, they will see the light. Thats tough to swallow as a coach, but theres no substitute for experience."
If only that were true. Had two players crying the blues about having safes played on them during leagues Thursday night. Saye, safe, safe the younger one says; if I hear safe one more time I'm gonna throw up. The other one was saying they should just go for the shot like a real man! I just shook my head and wondered if they knew why they continue to play in the lower division year after year while others move up the ladder.
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#289866 - 11/09/09 11:05 AM
Re: Teaching When To Play Safe?
[Re: Fenwick]
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Soflasnapper
journeyman
Registered: 03/19/08
Posts: 87
Loc: South Florida
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I think you could sell people on playing safe if the offensive side of safety play can be seen.
Particularly with ball in hand, which makes most people switch any thought of safety play to run out mode.
But imagine you have a cluster tieing up two of your balls, which even ball in hand cannot solve directly. The key here isn't simply safeing the opponent and getting ball in hand-- that still doesn't get you out on your next turn. However, if the safety can be played right at that cluster, breaking it up, so that the ball in hand then gives you a playable out, you've done both a defensive move while preparing for your offense next inning.
Similarly, the safe might instead include rolling one of your own balls toward the cluster, to provide an easily played break out shot in a later inning, and especially if the safe yields ball in hand.
Buddy Hall has a tape called 'How do you win from here?' A lot of what it shows is how and why a safe is preferable and the higher percentage play in a given game situation. As Buddy explains, maybe you have a 65% chance to get out, but you could increase that to an 80% to a 90% chance if you have the patience to play the safety instead and wait one inning.
Part of the problem, beyond the offensive only mind set many grew up playing with, is that the skill set for the delicate safe isn't part of the player's bag of shots. Frankly, and I've seen it many a time, a failed attempt at safety play often is as much a sell-out of the game as going for a lower percentage shot. Now this presents a kind of vicious circle-- players don't play enough safeties to learn the speeds and the moves, and so when they should play a given safety, they don't have any confidence in being able to execute. The only answer to this is for safety play to be practiced in non-game play situations (exactly where many people think going for harder shots is ok, considering it's not a game that counts).
_________________________
A medium sized fish
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#289874 - 11/09/09 12:23 PM
Re: Teaching When To Play Safe?
[Re: Soflasnapper]
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JoeW
addict
Registered: 03/23/07
Posts: 431
Loc: Leesburg, FL
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There is a cliche in the league I played in, "If you can't run 8 don't run 7." Seems to help some players. Others just don't see the logical extension of that type of thinking.
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#289886 - 11/09/09 01:37 PM
Re: Teaching When To Play Safe?
[Re: JoeW]
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wolfdancer
Carpal \'Tunnel
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 10585
Loc: north to alaska
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Knowing when to back off of the run,and play safe is an advanced technique, imo, and takes time to learn....I'm still learning.
Setting up ahead of time, for a killer safe, a shot or two into your turn at bat isn't easy for a beginner, and harder to visualize imo then playing position 3 balls ahead for a run out.
I think there was an old saying that went something like....running the rack requires control of the cue ball, playing safeties requires controlling both the OB, and the CB.
But I could be wrong... I had Dewey picked as the winner in '48
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#289888 - 11/09/09 02:08 PM
Re: Teaching When To Play Safe?
[Re: wolfdancer]
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Sid_Vicious
Carpal \'Tunnel
Registered: 02/17/02
Posts: 4520
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The way I look at a pool game, is that it's like a chess match...the board/table changes in real time and alternate game plans become swayed. IMO it is those who sense and feel "the new moves" as those chess plays develop, who really do well. I especially liked this phrase posted here by JoeW, "If you can't run 8 don't run 7." Damdest thing though it that so many new BCA players do just that very thing, and wonder how they got picked apart by the opponent, and lost. My methodology is most likely wrong, but I immediately read a table at all times for a safety, ie. walls, pinch rolls, runout possibilities, yet that's done as the game progresses as much as it does before I come out of the chair to shoot. Being so safety conscious all the time maybe limits my offensive game, but I can more consistently manufacture a decent safety than I can trust myself to not get out of line on a run while losing by blocking balls. BIHs really do push a 65% success ratio to 90%, even done half-azzed.
Thanks for all the advice on how to instill ideas in others. Reality seems that there will have to be a lot of bruising and loses for many to come around, which is a natural shame IMO...sid
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#289889 - 11/09/09 02:14 PM
Re: Teaching When To Play Safe?
[Re: Sid_Vicious]
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pooltchr
Carpal \'Tunnel
Registered: 04/18/03
Posts: 7854
Loc: Charlotte, NC
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I agree. So many people in our league are always talking about running racks, and getting a break and run patch. I try to tell them that failure to run out completely can cost you a game. I would rather win in 3 or 4 innings than miss a run-out and lose in one!
Steve
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#289891 - 11/09/09 02:32 PM
Re: Teaching When To Play Safe?
[Re: Sid_Vicious]
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wolfdancer
Carpal \'Tunnel
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 10585
Loc: north to alaska
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Chess is a game I regret never taking up. I enjoyed the Movie
"Searching for Bobby Fisher" A pool playing friend of mine, actually played some, with the guy, played by Ben Kingsley, and saw the chess prodigy play as well, in central park. I probably would have been a prodigy as well, if I had ever learned which pieces did what.
I even tried to read up on the classical strategies,.. only two terms I remember though is the Sicilian Defense, ( sawed off shotguns?) and the Blackmar Gambit ( I didn't quite have the spelling down, but thanks to Google...)
And now that I read about it:
"The popularity of the Blackmar Gambit, however, was short-lived, as it is basically unsound,..." It does sound like my pool strategy.
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#289902 - 11/09/09 06:26 PM
Re: Teaching When To Play Safe?
[Re: Soflasnapper]
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Fenwick
newbie
Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 47
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Sorry, not these two. One is stuck in the 50's and the other young one is not open minded IMO. They're like twins born 50 years apart. Bar players all the way. I don't see the point in beating a dead horse with these two.
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#289979 - 11/10/09 07:24 PM
Re: Teaching When To Play Safe?
[Re: Fenwick]
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1hit1der
journeyman
Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 52
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"If you can't run 8, don't run 7" is a good thing to remember, the problem is, a lot of players will *think* they can run 8 and will end up selling out since their plan consisted of landing the cue ball in a 2 inch target space for shape and missing it by a bit either way.
Like Sid, thinking about safeties may limit my offensive game, and it ends up killing me since my 8 ball league keeps track of ball count. I tend to win games with few of my opponents balls on the table, but lose with lots of mine because I choose not to go for the run that I don't see and may miss by safe by a small margin. That's another point, that I see many players try to play safe giving themselves a small window to place the CB and/or OB and end up leaving an open shot. A lot of safe's require fine speed/spin control which many players don't try to develop.
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#289984 - 11/10/09 10:25 PM
Re: Teaching When To Play Safe?
[Re: Sid_Vicious]
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wolfdancer
Carpal \'Tunnel
Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 10585
Loc: north to alaska
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Sid, I had forgotten about another pool/chess analogy, that someone told me a long time ago.
In chess the more pieces that you lose, the weaker your position is.
It's kind of like that as you pocket balls in 8 ball but don't get out.
On a similar note....in league pool there is usually one player on the team that stops the presses,calls time out to tell you the "only" way to get out on your 2 ball run. I'd tell them that since each ball would go in 1 of 6 different pockets, that makes 36 different patterns that one could use to get out....you sure this is the only one?
I used to never get invited back for a second season with the same team....never could figure out why?
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